lamenting the lack of church

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margaretcarnes
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Lamenting the lack of a church

Post by margaretcarnes » Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:05 am

Chas - not really my cup of tea, but I can understand the tradition of an old fashioned service. Dawn is right, the Hilton have a Sunday service which I think is multi-denominational.
IMO the 'Happy Clapper' format is progress. Certainly in England many churches have had to move with the times in order to attract bigger congregations, and of course to cater for ethnic minorities.
You clearly feel strongly though about keeping the traditional format - why not advertise for like minded people and hire a place to congregate? Maybe a Catholic priest from Bangkok would be willing to take a service in HH on a regular basis?
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KIDDY FIDDLERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Post by raphoedon » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:39 am

I read through this thread and as a non practicing roman Catholic I was encouraged to see that many people still feel passion for thier faith. To read the remark about Priests being "kiddie fiddlers" shocked me to the bone. This idiot who posted that remark is not worthy of being a member of a forum like this :guns: :guns: :guns:

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idiot

Post by Chas » Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:14 am

Thanks Rap & Margaret.
I really hate replying to idiots who never even bother to read my posts or understand the point of a thread that I started. I also thought of bringing "ace"s post to the attn of the mods as it seems totally uncalled for here.

I was going to let this thread just die but your intelligent replies (Rap & Margaret) encouraged me to continue.

Several points:
1. I abhor proselytization by Christians of any stripe! Nothing in this thread indicates that I want Thai people to be Catholic. I have enormous respect for Buddhism and Buddhists and deeply feel that they should continue in the faith of their ancestors. I want a traditional Catholic church ( C of E will do) for MYSELF and my own needs. Period. It is the faith of MY ancestors.

2. Margaret, I had thought along the lines that you suggest but so far I have not turned up even one other person of like mind. And I'm not about to join the" happy clappers". .(LOVE that term!) for theological as much as for liturgical reasons.

3. I have corresponded with the pastor of the C of E church in Bkk and attended a couple of times. Very disappointed. He did Communion service in street clothes, guitars & drums, gigantic movie screen in front of the main altar, etc. And this is the church with the only pipe organ in the country.

4. I have been corresponding with the local Catholic bishop concerning St Theresa's here in town. I don't expect much to come of it. The "English" mass is in the hands of Filipinos. Part of my plea to him is that the English Mass ought to be "Thai style" and done using Thai norms and sensibilities. .not those of the Philippines. Of greater concern. . .there is no "English" congregation or any attempt to incorporate non-Thai speakers into the parish. They run a Mass for tourists. Period.

5. On the bright side, since I discovered Youtube, I have had access to good liturgical music and that helps to pass a Sunday morning but it is also a bitter reminder that the Church of my ancestors no longer exists.

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Post by STEVE G » Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:23 pm

caller wrote:
mil_dos wrote:Halfway through The God Delusion at the mo'. Rarely, has so much common sense been squeezed into a single book.
Then after you have finished, try to read another with contrary views.

In this day and age, we seem susceptible to instant enlightenment with the latest faddy writer or whatever and after they have there 15 minutes, along comes another to milk the honey, so to speak.

It happens in business, lifestyle and religion, but what lasting effect do they have?
Caller, I understand your sentiments but Richard Dawkins is hardly a faddy writer; he held chair at the University of Oxford for many years, is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature and published his first book in 1976.

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Post by acerockolla » Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:47 pm

I suppose I should offer apologies for my post, maybe I gave my view a bit to passionately.
However I believe the catholic church have consistently failed to address two key areas and because of that I find it hard to take it seriously.
One, priests who abuse children and are protected by the church - this is not a rare occurrence it happens time and time again.
It's not just the fact these people get away with it for many years, ir's the fact that often it comes out that the church knew of the crimes yet protected their own.
Until the catholic church searches out these people and actually does something about their crimes I would find it hard to be associated with it.
Secondly, wake up to the realism of overcrowded countries and rampant STD's and AIDS and allow your followers to practise safe sex without going against the wishes of the faith.
The church needs to move with the times and address these type of issues.

So as I said I apologise for the way I wrote my original post but I would welcome some explanation why the catholic church and it's followers have done very little about these issues.

What some of these posts seem to be bringing up is the 'my version of the catholic church is better than yours' argument.
This is religion the world over for times past and times future.
It will fracture and split in to many different versions (factions) and eventually those that want the Latin will decide that those who want it in Thai are wrong and then the organ players will start to claim theirs is the only true way and before you know it.... well you know the story.

And as for the pathetic calls of we don't want people like you on our forum - whats the problem? I did not attack any individual on this board. If you think I am wrong debate with me. Don't just call for them to lop of my head because I might disagree with your beliefs about the way things work.
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apology accepted

Post by Chas » Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:48 pm

Apology accepted.

I happen to completely agree with you on both of the issues you raise, but neither has anything to do with this thread or my reasons for starting it in the first place.

As for ordinary Catholics having a say in the Church? HA! Hasn't ever happened in the past and wont happen in the future. Its a top-down organization like the military and all the orders and directives come down from on high. What many ordinary Catholics have learned to do is to decide for themselves which orders make sense and which don't . ..and act according to their own consciences.

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Post by sandman67 » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:20 pm

urk....storm rain induced double post????
Last edited by sandman67 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by sandman67 » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:20 pm

Heyho Chas

I was educated by Salesians in the UK where they definitely are not "happy clappy" and more like "Blood and Thunder"... so I was brought up a Catholic stormtrooper....

.. then went my own way....Christianity stopped making any sense.

For critics of the Salesians I would point out that their primary mission is education not building churches. St John Bosco, who started the order, stressed education and support over faith. He was a pretty good bloke all in all. He saw education as a way of breaking the poverty cycle.

I do still on the odd occasion pop into a church to light a candle for my grandfather (a promise I made). In all my years I have only seen two priests who I actually believed what they were saying....and who actually made the Credo mean something. It was quite moving to see.

I have no time at all for the Pope and his underlings....they are fools who are out of touch and too reliant on their tidy comfortable little lives. They preach out of date beliefs that are ever less relevant in a modern world. (Many Immams fall into the same trap).

Evangelicals just make me sneer..... fools one and all. Faith to them is truly the opium to salve their emptiness and inadequacy.

Now, after all this time i follow a philosophy rather than a religion.

I still do believe in the divine, though in my form which is mostly buddhist/taoist/animist/mozi .....and when I want to "speak to God" I ride up to the viewpoint over HH and the hills, or down to Kao Takiab beach where its nice and empty and just have a word with him there...."God" is every where....and always watching :thumb:
"Science flew men to the moon. Religion flew men into buildings."

"To sin by silence makes cowards of men."

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non christian

Post by nevets » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:58 pm

I was baptised Methodist and the only one in our house to go to church .
And was in the Life boys and then in the Boys brigade and a sunday school teacher for a while. But later very disillusioned with the god thing , and became a non christian thinking how can a god let children be hurt by paedophiles and war, and there has been moor atrocities in the name of god than any other .
Well i would think that Christianity should be good for people but it is not and you only have to watch the god channels on TV and you see they are as corrupt as politicians in it for the money.

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Post by HuaHinR » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:01 pm

Not only Dawkins' "The God Delusion," but also Hitchens "god is not great." It's almost like they are simply parts one and two of a single topic.

I wouldn't view them as fads or faddish. I think they've captured and articulated what many people (and even many regular churchgoers) have long believed deep in their hearts. Dawkins explores the idea of people who don't REALLY believe in God, but do "believe in the belief" in God, i.e., see that practicing a "belief in God" can bring about desirable results (peace of mind, etc).

Many feel they get no sense of spirituality in church nowdays. And the Buddhists can be used as an example of folks who can have great spirituality without believing in "God." I think many folks seek spirituality, but do not really believe in the traditional "God" in their heart of hearts.

Interesting sub-topic.

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Post by sandman67 » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:41 pm

Pastafarianism seems to make sense..... :thumb:

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Post by Jockey » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:50 pm

Forty per cent of nuns in the United States have been sexually abused, often at the hands of a priest or another nun, according to an independent study which was conducted by researchers at St Louis University and paid for in part by several orders of Catholic nuns. The national survey of nuns was completed in 1996 but kept under wraps because some Catholic officials feared the information would create a scandal. The findings show that about 34,000 US nuns may have suffered some form of sexual abuse. Many said they were left with feelings of anger, shame, anxiety and depression after their abuse, and some said they had attempted suicide.

Though sexual abuse by nuns and religious sisters may seem rare in comparison to sexual abuse by the male priests, it does happen. The effects of childhood sexual abuse or other forms of abuse by women in positions of religious authority can be devastating to their victim's emotional, mental, physical and spiritual health.

During the 1950s and 1960s, institutions run by the Congregation of the Sisters of Mercy in Ireland were responsible for horrific abuses of young girls - including working long hours for little compensation and vicious physical beatings. The order has publicly apologised for what they have done, despite fighting the allegations in the past. It took a TV documentary for them to start to come to terms with their crimes. The abuses were reported before that, but they were repeatedly denied for years.

One of the dangers inherent in believing oneself "holy" is that one also believes oneself incapable of error and crime. Anything and everything that one does is for a higher and more important causes. Others can't understand and must therefore be dismissed - but that only compounds the crimes.

The history of abuse of catholic priests and nuns is abominable. Many should be locked up alongside the likes of Gary Glitter but are instead revered by naive people who actually think that "God" talks through them.

The catholic church is an evil monster, a big business which has these so-called "holy men" at the top being driven about in limousines with private drivers.

Hitler & Mussolini were approved by the catholic religion. Catholic missionaries wiped out whole populations in the pursuit of religious conversion. Don't get me started with the catholic religion and I'm a Celtic supporter! :guns:

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Post by acerockolla » Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:32 pm

sandman67 wrote:
Now, after all this time i follow a philosophy rather than a religion.

I still do believe in the divine, though in my form which is mostly buddhist/taoist/animist/mozi .....and when I want to "speak to God" I ride up to the viewpoint over HH and the hills, or down to Kao Takiab beach where its nice and empty and just have a word with him there...."God" is every where....and always watching :thumb:
Amen
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Lamenting the lack of a church

Post by margaretcarnes » Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:30 am

Jockey - lets not forget that in the 50's and 60's a lot of things went on which wouldn't be tolerated in more modern society. I remember homes for unmarried mothers for example (not that I saw the inside of one!) but girls were still treated as social misfits then if they were unmarried and pregnant. Patients were still treated in almost Dickensian style hospitals, and ECT treatment went on for years. The recent discovery of abuse in the Jersey kids home shows that abuse still goes on, and is still covered up.
IMO cases of abuse by priests probably sell more newspapers. It shouldn't happen - but isn't confined to any particular faith. Where I grew up it was almost accepted that fathers would come home from sea and abuse their children.
We are losing the point of Chas posting though. He simply wants to be able to worship in the manner he is accustomed to. Despite my lack of faith I can't see anything wrong with that. Religion might be the opiate of the masses, but its a damn sight better than crack cocaine :cheers:
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Re: Lamenting the lack of a church

Post by redzonerocker » Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:52 am

margaretcarnes wrote: I remember homes for unmarried mothers for example (not that I saw the inside of one!)
my mum's first ever job was in one of these homes (catholic) working with my grandmother.
the abuse & treatment of the children & young adults there was cruel, nasty & degrading. she didn't stay long.
We are losing the point of Chas posting though. He simply wants to be able to worship in the manner he is accustomed to. Despite my lack of faith I can't see anything wrong with that. Religion might be the opiate of the masses, but its a damn sight better than crack cocaine :cheers:
yep, each to his own :cheers:
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