Thai ex-PM fails to show for verdict

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Re: Thai ex-PM fails to show for verdict

Post by albaker » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:06 pm

hhfarang wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:51 pm
"Former Thai leader seeking asylum in UK, says party source"

https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/1b45b052-e ... eking.html
If true she will feel at home with the rest of runaway convicted criminals , deposed dictators , despots etc who are allowed to stay in UK . Some granted political asylum other just right to remain even though outstanding warrants for criminal acts ! Both major political parties have done this . Money talks here in UK too .

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Re: Thai ex-PM fails to show for verdict

Post by 404cameljockey » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:14 pm

The UK has an extradition treaty with Thailand though. And there are many Brits living in or visiting Thailand who could be inconvenienced by the Thai government if they so desired.

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Re: Thai ex-PM fails to show for verdict

Post by HHTel » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:37 pm

There's absolutely no chance of extradition, treaty or not. Firstly, a request for extradition has to be agreed by the 'requested countries' courts. Secondly, the courts will only approve an extradition order if the 'crime' is recognised in that country.
I doubt whether her 'crime' is recognised anywhere but Thailand.
And the fact that Thailand is under a military junta doesn't help matters.

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Re: Thai ex-PM fails to show for verdict

Post by Bluesky » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:40 pm

Interpol asked to issue Blue Notice on Yingluck

The Royal Thai Police has asked the Interpol to issue a Blue Notice for its 190 member countries to find the whereabouts of fugitive former prime minister Yingluck Shinawatra, deputy police spokesman Pol Col Krisna Pattanacharoen said on Saturday (Sept 30).

Pol Col Krisna said that after the Supreme Court’s Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions found Ms Yingluck guilty of neglect of duty in the rice-pledging scheme and sentenced her to five years in jail without suspension, the RTP has ordered all units to look for her.

An arrest has been sent to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to revoke her passport.

Moreover, the Interpol has been asked to issue a Blue Notice for its 190 member countries to find Ms Yingluck’s whereabouts.

The RTP has used all channels available in the hunt for Ms Yingluck, the spokesman said.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/interp ... -yingluck/

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Re: Thai ex-PM fails to show for verdict

Post by 404cameljockey » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:07 am

HHTel wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:37 pm
There's absolutely no chance of extradition, treaty or not. Firstly, a request for extradition has to be agreed by the 'requested countries' courts.
It's not a given that it would be denied, you can't say that. Is her personal money more important to the UK than Thailand's friendship. Let a few Brits get banged up for life on drugs charges in the Bangkok Hilton to see. UK and Thailand holding each others' balls saying 'we don't want to hurt each other, do we?'. Awfully bad luck, Ms.Yingluck.
Secondly, the courts will only approve an extradition order if the 'crime' is recognised in that country.
I doubt whether her 'crime' is recognised anywhere but Thailand.
The UK's negligence laws can result in a prison sentence for severe cases. For example gross negligence manslaughter carries a maximum life sentence on conviction.
And the fact that Thailand is under a military junta doesn't help matters.
? The UK has a record of being wilfully blind to such matters when required.

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Re: Thai ex-PM fails to show for verdict

Post by HHTel » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:41 am

'Negligence' in this context is very different to the negligence laws in the UK. In this case 'negligence' only resulted in economic loss which won't stand up in the UK courts.
Negligently inflicted economic loss


Generally no duty of care is owed to avoid causing another to suffer a loss which is purely economic. i.e. one where the financial loss is not related to a personal injury or damage to property.
I stand by her 'crime' not being recognised there.

She was found guilty of 'Criminal Negligence'. Although that exists as a crime in the UK, Yingluk's negligence certainly doesn't fit the bill.

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Re: Thai ex-PM fails to show for verdict

Post by 404cameljockey » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:11 am

HHTel wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:41 am
'Negligence' in this context is very different to the negligence laws in the UK. In this case 'negligence' only resulted in economic loss which won't stand up in the UK courts.
Negligently inflicted economic loss


Generally no duty of care is owed to avoid causing another to suffer a loss which is purely economic. i.e. one where the financial loss is not related to a personal injury or damage to property.
I stand by her 'crime' not being recognised there.

She was found guilty of 'Criminal Negligence'. Although that exists as a crime in the UK, Yingluk's negligence certainly doesn't fit the bill.
You may be right, Rumpole, but I still believe that the UK government can interpret things as they wish, and favourable High Court judges can be appointed to suit the circumstances. Case law is there to be interpreted if not easily overturned, and I have no idea what old decisions are lurking in law books.

On another tack, she may also be found vicariously liable for the thefts by her ministers, purely because of her negligence. That's a whole new game.

I suppose future developments rest on the next set of charges to be brought against her, as I believe that other criminal charges were mentioned as maybe being framed (as in formulated).

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Re: Thai ex-PM fails to show for verdict

Post by caller » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:47 pm

404cameljockey wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:11 am
You may be right, Rumpole, but I still believe that the UK government can interpret things as they wish, and favourable High Court judges can be appointed to suit the circumstances. Case law is there to be interpreted if not easily overturned, and I have no idea what old decisions are lurking in law books.

On another tack, she may also be found vicariously liable for the thefts by her ministers, purely because of her negligence. That's a whole new game.

I suppose future developments rest on the next set of charges to be brought against her, as I believe that other criminal charges were mentioned as maybe being framed (as in formulated).
I believe HHTel is right and you are wrong.

I doubt for one minute that Yingluck has just turned up - if indeed she has - with a puny plea to the UK to give the poor little persecuted ex-PM, asylum?

Do you not think she would have consulted and sought opinion from the best immigration and extradition lawyers in the land? I know immigration lawyers who do their damnedest in every case, even for those who have nothing? Check the Court of appeal rulings that have defined UK immigration policy as proof of this. To suggest the UK can interpret things as they wish and appoint judges to suit the circumstances demonstrates a lack of understanding as to how this process works and the legal system that is designed to keep such abuse in check. Changes were specifically made to guarantee the independence of the judiciary in 2006, effectively removing judicial appointments from being the responsibility of a Government minister.

Even if after a lengthy process she is denied asylum. They won't repatriate her to serve a clearly unjust sentence, especially as since the verdict the Generals have changed the rules governing appeals and applied it retrospectively. What a coincidence! If that isn't an abuse of the process designed to ensnare her, I don't know what is.

What they might do is encourage her to move on in due course or act as they did with her brother when they refused him further access to the UK after he had left the Country. He still has a home in London and a mansion in Weybridge as far as I am aware. I'm sure she'll be most comfortable.
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Re: Thai ex-PM fails to show for verdict

Post by 404cameljockey » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:15 pm

OK, I see that you believe that UK 'immigration policy' is applied the same to every applicant no matter what their background or how high their standing. It's your opinion. And can you tell me what exactly is unjust about her sentence anyway (I'm not talking about the change of law concerning appeal)? Do you know the daily working of the PM's administration in Thailand and what she was and was not responsible for? When bad things happen the head person takes the hit, that's the way in both business and politics. And when was the last time you reviewed Court of Appeal rulings anyway? I already admitted that I'm not up on case law (going back many years even on immigration/asylum), are you?

And to compare her case with that of asylum seekers who have nothing, you're really scraping the barrel there. She can retire comfortably in so many countries, it's just whether the UK wants her or not, quit the violins mate!:D

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Re: Thai ex-PM fails to show for verdict

Post by caller » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:47 pm

404cameljockey wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:15 pm
Do you know the daily working of the PM's administration in Thailand and what she was and was not responsible for? When bad things happen the head person takes the hit, that's the way in both business and politics. And when was the last time you reviewed Court of Appeal rulings anyway? I already admitted that I'm not up on case law (going back many years even on immigration/asylum), are you?

And to compare her case with that of asylum seekers who have nothing, you're really scraping the barrel there. She can retire comfortably in so many countries, it's just whether the UK wants her or not, quit the violins mate!:D
If you don't like the woman just say so. Don't create some scenario to suit your personal wishes. If she was a he and called Suthep, she would still be a free person in Thailand as he is, despite the scandal and allegations of malfeasance to do with the building new Police Stations that have never materialised and cost Thailand billons. Apparently, after God knows how many years, his case is still being looked into There's another example her lawyers can use to demonstrate the political motivation behind her prosecution. One is a PM coming from a family the junta want to eradicate, the other is on their side.

I would argue that in Thailand, its usually lacky's and the small, inconsequential people that take the hit. Not those higher up the pecking order. I doubt there's a Thai that isn't aware of this. Also it's well reported that the current junta leaders have made themselves immune from any such future prosecution, or so they think. Something else her lawyers can point out.

The comparison to poor asylum seekers was to make the point that the law can be tested and challenged by everyone, irrespective of their wealth and background. You were implying that the UK would treat her differently irrespective of whether the law is on her side, just to send her back, and I was pointing out that it doesn't work like that.

And funnily enough, for many years in my line of work, I did review court of appeal rulings when they impacted on my line of work. Generally criminal law but also in cases to do with immigration in the UK, as so often what we did meant we dealt with immigration offenders and their like, even if as a by-product of our own work and such cases could inform (then) current and future decision making on my part. Luckily, I signed up to a service which meant such cases and the relevance of the ruling were actually brought to my attention and I didn't have to go searching for them.
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Re: Thai ex-PM fails to show for verdict

Post by 404cameljockey » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:37 pm

OK this is going nowhere fast. I have nothing at all against the Thaksins. It's not personal. I don't give a hoot if she gets asylum in the UK.

I'm assuming that you, like me, have no deep personal knowledge of the law of tort in the UK. My background involves a lot of marine law, and although a good friend of mine was a criminal barrister for many years and is now a High Court judge in the UK, I'm not so concerned with this as to ask his opinion. I could if you wish though!).

I will never agree that special cases will not be made in some way or other under UK law if it benefits HM government. Either to allow he to stay or to move on.

So I all I hear now when we talk is blah blah blah, we will get nowhere.

As far as her personal guilt in Thailand goes, that's not what I was concerned with, but I understand that you can;t show anything to prove innocence of negligence. But anyway it's a moot point as far as I can see, as she won't be willing to answer charges. And I for one don't blame her for not being present for the ruling.

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Re: Thai ex-PM fails to show for verdict

Post by HHTel » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:00 pm

Good post, Caller.
And, 404, it's the Shinawatras not the Thaksin's. Thaksin is just one man but we know what you mean

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Re: Thai ex-PM fails to show for verdict

Post by 404cameljockey » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:54 am

HHTel wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:00 pm
Good post, Caller.
And, 404, it's the Shinawatras not the Thaksin's. Thaksin is just one man but we know what you mean
Yes, I'm sorry, I was thinking of the brother as I was typing.

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Re: Thai ex-PM fails to show for verdict

Post by Nereus » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:14 pm

Hmm, it appears that the powers that be have no intention of letting this go:
.........................................................................................
Police: Yingluck in UK, Interpol red notice sought

https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politi ... recent_box

Police confirmed on Tuesday former prime minister Yingluck Shinawatra was in Britain and a red notice for her arrest was being sought from Interpol.
Deputy national police chief Srivara Ransibrahmanakul said on Tuesday that he already signed a request for an Interpol red notice and was being sent to Interpol through the foreign affairs division of the Royal Thai Police. A red notice is similar to an international arrest warrant.

Pol Gen Srivara said in seeking the red notice he reasoned that Yingluck was wanted under an arrest warrant. Whether it would be issued depends on the decision of Interpol, he said.

The deputy national police chief said the red notice could be sought when the police knew the whereabouts of Yingluck and after the United Arab Emirates confirmed that Yingluck had left Dubai for Britain, they took action
He also said that Britain and Thailand had their extradition treaty and public prosecutors would handle the matter.

Yingluck allegedly disappeared on Aug 23. The Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions was originally scheduled on Aug 25 to deliver its ruling on her loss-ridden rice-pledging case.
Her absence caused the court to postpone the announcement to Sept 27, when it handed down a five-year jail term for her failure to stop fake and corrupt government-to-government sales of rice from the rice programme even though she had been aware of the irregularities.

Investigation into those who helped her flee was underway.
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Re: Thai ex-PM fails to show for verdict

Post by 404cameljockey » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:20 pm

Nereus wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:14 pm
Hmm, it appears that the powers that be have no intention of letting this go:
.........................................................................................
Police: Yingluck in UK, Interpol red notice sought

https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politi ... recent_box

Police confirmed on Tuesday former prime minister Yingluck Shinawatra was in Britain and a red notice for her arrest was being sought from Interpol.
Deputy national police chief Srivara Ransibrahmanakul said on Tuesday that he already signed a request for an Interpol red notice and was being sent to Interpol through the foreign affairs division of the Royal Thai Police. A red notice is similar to an international arrest warrant.

Pol Gen Srivara said in seeking the red notice he reasoned that Yingluck was wanted under an arrest warrant. Whether it would be issued depends on the decision of Interpol, he said.

The deputy national police chief said the red notice could be sought when the police knew the whereabouts of Yingluck and after the United Arab Emirates confirmed that Yingluck had left Dubai for Britain, they took action
He also said that Britain and Thailand had their extradition treaty and public prosecutors would handle the matter.

Yingluck allegedly disappeared on Aug 23. The Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions was originally scheduled on Aug 25 to deliver its ruling on her loss-ridden rice-pledging case.
Her absence caused the court to postpone the announcement to Sept 27, when it handed down a five-year jail term for her failure to stop fake and corrupt government-to-government sales of rice from the rice programme even though she had been aware of the irregularities.

Investigation into those who helped her flee was underway.
According to HHtel and caller, Interpol will have no luck with UK authorities. Or if arrested WTF wil happen then? Let's see. :)

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