Tessaban property tax

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Nereus
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Re: Tesaban Tax

Post by Nereus » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:47 pm

I am willing to bet that there is a "new boss" in the office that is trying this on. Has anybody asked them for a copy of the regulations to show just how they have arrived at their assessment?
In my case it appears clear cut that it is related to the terms of the 30 year lease, but I am not sure if that is the end of it. I have not been back to pay mine yet, but will try and find out when I do pay it.

Somebody (SJ?) has written that there can be no assessment such as mine if the property is held under a Usufruct (sp) as there is no payments being made. How then is this registered? I assume it is entered on the Chanote in the same way as the lease in noted, so how do they calculate the "fee"?
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Re: Tesaban Tax

Post by Norseman » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:32 pm

Super Joe wrote: Norseman, do you know if the figures you saw were for the past years, incl. Jan 2010-Jan 2011, or are they the new assessed values for the coming years, ie: February 2011 onwards? New valuations are due to come in this month, February 2011, for the next four years apparently.

SJ
The lawyer, who showed me the paper with the calculations, said it was "some" years old and because the municipality can't show him any proof of any new valuation, he refused to pay his own tax.
I'll have a meeting with him on Tuesday 15 this month at 2pm, two hours after his own meeting with the tax office and the mayor.
I guess I have to pay the 200 Baht penalty bill because of too late payment, but I couldn't care less.
If they still want me to pay a double price, I'll head for Pratchuap.

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Re: Tesaban Tax

Post by JimmyGreaves » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:46 pm

hhfarang wrote:
Paid 5220 last year and they want exactly 9000 baht this year!
I really am at a loss to understand this. My wife has paid every year and as I said with a pretty big house and big piece of land (two actually, ours and a leased lot) ours has been 400 to 500 baht each year. :? :? :?

We're in the third zone. Could it be that much lower? :|
Maybe because they see my land and house owned by a company.

What's the story about going to Prachuap Kiri to there offices to pay?
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Re: Tesaban Tax

Post by Super Joe » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:49 pm

JimmyGreaves wrote:From SJ last post our house is 250Sqm 2 storey no pool. So go figure that out. Crazy!
Paid 5220 last year and they want exactly 9000 baht this year!
Yeah, seems like there's something fishy with your bill for this year. Why don't you get your missus to politely ask why different from last, or for a breakdown of the costs. Am I right in thinking yours in under a Ltd Co., and they were mentioning 'farang', maybe they've trying to slip something in cos of this.
Because my mates' bill was charged for the last 4 years together, and every year was exactly the same. Also his 350m2 bill of 7,500 Baht = 4.8%, your 250m2 bill of 5,220 BHT = 4.7%, pretty similar and maybe even the same as don't know his precise m2.


Nereus wrote:Somebody (SJ?) has written that there can be no assessment such as mine if the property is held under a Usufruct (sp) as there is no payments being made. How then is this registered? I assume it is entered on the Chanote in the same way as the lease in noted, so how do they calculate the "fee"?
That was only for the personal income tax though. For the land and house tax, it says people are exempted if the property is 'owner-occupied' as the primary Thai residence. That's why I reckon that if your daughter can demonstrate this, then may get it withdrawn. I don't believe any of these bills are related to PIT by the way, as that is not due until April/May(!?) and comes from a different tax office from the Taliban.

Re: An 'owner-occupier', the director/shareholder etc of a Limited Company living in the company house/office is not an 'owner-occupier'.

Having said all this, it's like anything here, looking up what the official rules are supposed to be, can be irrelevant at the end of the day, officials pretty much do as they see fit :?

SJ

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Re: Tesaban Tax

Post by Super Joe » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:46 pm

But thinking about it, it's perfectly logical for one house's bill to be double or half of their neighbours, or even 5-100 houses in a row, all with differing bills. Because of how the tax is applied, quote:
"12.5% of the actual yearly rental or lease fee, or the annual assessed value, whichever is higher"

House 1 - 0 Baht, owner-occupied so exempt.
House 2 - 2,500 Baht, empty property but not primary residence, tax is applied but 50% allowance as empty.
House 3 - 5,000 Baht, rented/leased but owner is away, so Tessbahn use their own assessed valuations.
House 4 - 7,500 Baht, Tessabahn know from owner/land office that lease is registered at 20k/month
House 5 - 10,000 Baht, Tessabahn know from owner/income tax office that rent is charged at 30k/month
House 6 to end of the street - Change the monthly rent/lease fee to suit :D

I think the people that write the laws and regs here are a lot smarter than we give them credit for, and that the chaos is organised. If corruption etc is to flourish unchecked, what's the best scenario? .... total chaos where no-one knows what's what, and officialdom can interpret the rules to suit the case at hand. So pretty much how it is then :D , and this isn't limited to just foreigner related stuff by any means imo.

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Re: Tesaban Tax

Post by Nereus » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:40 pm

OK, maybe I did not put it how I was thinking.

If I tear up the lease and set up a Usufruct, how, where and at what cost is it registered? :cheers:
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Re: Tesaban Tax

Post by JimmyGreaves » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:36 pm

I've just squeezed more information from the wife, bloody hard work!

Today they said to the wife that the tax would be 1 baht more than last year apparantly and first gave her a figure of around 5700 baht, the wife was about to pay as I said if same as last year do it. Anyway as she was about to pay they said 'this is not your name is it it's a company name and told her to hold on, came back with the 9000 baht figure. Just wondering if they made a mistake last year now.

It would be so nice if it was down in black and white. A 80% or so increase in taxes I would have thought would not be allowed by the common folk!
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Re: Tesaban Tax

Post by Norseman » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:31 pm

JimmyGreaves wrote:A 80% or so increase in taxes I would have thought would not be allowed by the common folk!
So why not call it a scam?
That's just what is!!

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Re: Tesaban Tax

Post by crazy88 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:47 pm

Nereus wrote

"Somebody (SJ?) has written that there can be no assessment such as mine if the property is held under a Usufruct (sp) as there is no payments being made. How then is this registered? I assume it is entered on the Chanote in the same way as the lease in noted, so how do they calculate the "fee"?"

Nereus

Not having a pop in any way but have you read, or had read to you, your chanote? Do you even have it? Many do not have the original and have no idea what it says. Main question is how on earth anyone could or would purchase, lease or usufruct a property without having everything 100% clear?

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Re: Tesaban Tax

Post by Nereus » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:20 pm

crazy88 wrote:Nereus wrote

"Somebody (SJ?) has written that there can be no assessment such as mine if the property is held under a Usufruct (sp) as there is no payments being made. How then is this registered? I assume it is entered on the Chanote in the same way as the lease in noted, so how do they calculate the "fee"?"

Nereus

Not having a pop in any way but have you read, or had read to you, your chanote? Do you even have it? Many do not have the original and have no idea what it says. Main question is how on earth anyone could or would purchase, lease or usufruct a property without having everything 100% clear?

Crazy 88
Yes, I have the Chanote, and it has my name on it. What has happened here is the Lawyers have not explained, or even bothered to mention, is that my Daughter would be "taxed" on the "income" that has to be shown to register the lease. We were led to believe that the "tax" that was paid when the lease was registered at the Land Dept. was all that would have to be paid.

What I am asking above concerns changing the lease to a Usufruct that does not have to show any "lease fee". I would still be liable for the "building and land tax" that is being discussed here, but it should be a lot less than the 15k Baht that I am lumbered with now.

In addition to that, I am not sure that I may still be liable for 2 lots. Technically the amount I am talking about now is due from my Daughter as the owner, but I will have to pay it. She is also liable for personal income tax on the "income" from the lease, which, again, the Lawyers did not mention.

These particular Lawyers (Bangkok) cannot even claim a language "misunderstanding", as the individual concerned went to School in the UK and speaks fluent English. The Company also holds Government accreditation as certified translators.
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Re: Tesaban Tax

Post by crazy88 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:54 pm

Thank you for that Nereus.

Having experience of subleasing in the past I have had to pay taxes but never on my own lease, only the income from sublease.

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Re: Tesaban Tax

Post by Super Joe » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:49 am

Nereus wrote:I would still be liable for the "building and land tax" that is being discussed here, but it should be a lot less than the 15k Baht that I am lumbered with now.
Why do you say it should be a lot less? Based on your registered lease of 100k per year it should be 12,700 Baht, and given the penalties that are applicable due to you (all of us) not filing the tax return each year, the bill should be way in excess of 15,000 Baht. They seem to have let you off a lot of the penalties, and given you a smaller bill than they could of.

SJ

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Re: Tesaban Tax

Post by Nereus » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:59 am

Super Joe wrote:
Nereus wrote:I would still be liable for the "building and land tax" that is being discussed here, but it should be a lot less than the 15k Baht that I am lumbered with now.
Why do you say it should be a lot less? Based on your registered lease of 100k per year it should be 12,700 Baht, and given the penalties that are applicable due to you (all of us) not filing the tax return each year, the bill should be way in excess of 15,000 Baht. They seem to have let you off a lot of the penalties, and given you a smaller bill than they could of.

SJ
For the simple reason that the assessment would be based on the what Norseman has written, rather than the amount of the lease.
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Re: Tesaban Tax

Post by hhfarang » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:30 am

For the land and house tax, it says people are exempted if the property is 'owner-occupied' as the primary Thai residence.
Ok, thanks SJ. That partially explains our low taxes. [Edited at the request of the poster]
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Re: Tesaban Tax

Post by Super Joe » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:00 pm

Nereus wrote:For the simple reason that the assessment would be based on the what Norseman has written, rather than the amount of the lease.
What Norseman posted is not how your tax should be calculated though from what I can see. If you see how the tax is applied which I posted on page 1 and since, it's not neccessarily about their assessed valuations ...
12.5% of the actual yearly rental/lease amount or the government assessed amount, whichever is higher.
Now they don't always seem to apply it by the lease amount, and instead use their own lower valuations, but if they want to scam themselves, that's ok by me :D


Nereus wrote:Ok, thanks SJ. That partially explains our low taxes. Our property(s) are wholly owned by my Thai wife and she is resident. Maybe the 400 to 500 she has been paying is for the leased (to someone else) plot. Does that sound right? So far, until this is sorted, I've told her not to go down to pay this year.
Yes, that does sounds about right, hhf. Although not sure of exact figures etc. But IF they've actually issued a bill already I'd be inclined to go down and sort it out based on the below extract that I posted earlier, but if not issued yet, as ourselves, then seems to be only the 200 Baht fine for not filing tax return and we're not bothering either ...
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