Problem with local workmen

Ask here about the pleasures and pitfalls of buying, selling or renting property and real estate in Hua Hin. Building, design and construction topics welcome. Commercial or promotional posts for real estate companies or private properties are forbidden.
Allenby
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:13 pm
Location: Bangkok

Problem with local workmen

Post by Allenby »

.
It’s a never-ending problem with Thai workmen: they won’t listen.
How do you handle it?

They want to do things their way, the Thai way, the easiest, quickest, cheapest, sloppiest way.
They say, “This is the way we do it.”
Their way, invariably, leads to problems down the road — after they have been paid and are gone.

If a farang (me) — speaking softly, politely, in clear Thai — wants something done in a better way, the Thai workmen first protest that’s not they way they do it, then they get sullen, then they walk off the job.
It happened to me, again, today, with repairs in my condo.

I asked my maid, “If a Thai man were in this situation, what would he have done?”
The maid answered, “Same like you.”

But the job is just started -- the bathroom is partly torn apart -- and the two workmen (father and son) have walked off the job.
Took all their tools, so unlikely they are coming back.

Is there a better way to handle it?
What would you have done?

- Al
User avatar
Dannie Boy
Hero
Hero
Posts: 12031
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:12 pm
Location: Closer to Cha Am than Hua Hin

Re: What would you have done? -- Chung won’t listen.

Post by Dannie Boy »

I think a lot of people, me included, would have done the same as you, after all it's your money and you have to be happy that you're getting the work done to your satisfaction. In a perfect world (that might exclude Thailand), you'd get a specification/method statement agreed upfront, however I realise that this isn't always possible. There are good tradesman out there, it's just a challenge to find the one you're looking for, but hopefully you will be more fortunate second time around - the fact that you can speak Thai should make it possible.
Allenby
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:13 pm
Location: Bangkok

Re: What would you have done? -- Chung won’t listen.

Post by Allenby »

.
Dannie Boy wrote:There are good tradesman out there, it's just a challenge to find the one you're looking for...
Thank you, Dannie Boy, for positive encouragement.

Even after ten years here, I still struggle with sloppy work everywhere.
I've asked Thai friends, who invariably reply, "Thai people not care."

-- Al
Noz
Specialist
Specialist
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:49 pm

Re: What would you have done? -- Chung won’t listen.

Post by Noz »

Allenby wrote: They want to do things their way, the Thai way, the easiest, quickest, cheapest, sloppiest way. They say, “This is the way we do it.” Their way, invariably, leads to problems down the road — after they have been paid and are gone.
Unfortunately, unless you get hold of a tradesman recommended by someone else, it might be down to trial and error. Personally, I'd only pay for the parts/materials upfront and I'd be doing my best to stand over them working, as far as is possible without being too intrusive, just to make sure they're doing as agreed. Not always possible of course.

Once while in rented accommodation, my landlord decided to install an outdoor hand-built jacuzzi. Sounded great until he decided to re-tile the whole outdoor area, which took forever and was a real intrusion. Anyway, when the tiling of the jacuzzi itself came around, they were two types of tile bought by the landlord. One being a non-slip version, intended for the flooring and also an area that was for seating and that you had to step on to get into the jacuzzi. As this was an area covered in water, that seemed sensible.

I had my wife reconfirm with the tiler (in Thai) that the non-slip version would be used for the wet seating/step-in area and we stood there with the tiles in our hands as she spoke. All was agreed. Of course they said, as if they'd do anything else. Stupid to ask was the inference. Off we went and returned after their shift for a look. The normal slippy tiles had been used instead. Quite incredible. As we were soon to move out, I didn't take it any further, but had it been my property and my money, I'd have been less than pleased.

So I can sympathise with your predicament!
Allenby
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:13 pm
Location: Bangkok

Re: What would you have done? -- Chung won’t listen.

Post by Allenby »

.
Noz wrote:Of course they said, as if they'd do anything else. Stupid to ask was the inference. Off we went and returned after their shift for a look. The normal slippy tiles had been used instead.
Thank you, Noz, you've painted a vivid picture.
Noz wrote:I'd be doing my best to stand over them working, as far as is possible without being too intrusive
Good advice, and that is exactly what I did -- sat on a chair right in front of the bathroom door.
They sure don't like that.

And when they began to do the last bits first, I said, softly, in respectful Thai, "No, krap, not now. That fitting is the last to put on."
That's when sullen faces appeared.

Everything they touched was wrong, and I was saying "No, not that way. This way will work better," over and over again.
No argument, no raised voices, no exaggerated body language.

It is not just these two workmen, but most all others that I have encountered here fit the same pattern.
That's why I'm here looking for advice on how to handle this aspect of "Thai culture".

-- Al
User avatar
STEVE G
Hero
Hero
Posts: 12798
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:50 am
Location: HUA HIN/EUROPE

Re: What would you have done? -- Chung won’t listen.

Post by STEVE G »

To be honest, if I knew exactly how to do a job and was going to spend my day watching someone else do it, I think I would do simply do it myself and save the money. ( Obviously I don't know you personally and there may be reasons that exclude that option. )
Allenby
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:13 pm
Location: Bangkok

Re: What would you have done? -- Chung won’t listen.

Post by Allenby »

.
STEVE G wrote:I would do simply do it myself
Yes, that would certainly be best.

But the problem for expats goes far beyond just this one job.
We expats in Thailand encounter sloppy workmanship in many ways.
For example, I've experienced doctors, dentists, opticians and lawyers doing really sloppy work.
Can't quite do any of that myself.

So the broader question here is, "What to do when a Thai starts doing sloppy/shoddy/incorrect work?"

-- Al
oakdale160
Rock Star
Rock Star
Posts: 4657
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:51 pm

Re: What would you have done? -- Chung won’t listen.

Post by oakdale160 »

Its a strange cultural difference. We learn from experience that in the long run it saves you time and money to do things correctly the first time. Other Asian cultures Korean and Japanese are even more obsessive about getting things right, but here in Thai that penny never seems to drop. Thereis also a more difficult thing to assess, pride in ones work, that seems to be absent too. There are, of course, exceptions.
Allenby
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:13 pm
Location: Bangkok

Re: What would you have done? -- Chung won’t listen.

Post by Allenby »

oakdale160 wrote:Its a strange cultural difference. We learn from experience that in the long run it saves you time and money to do things correctly the first time. Other Asian cultures Korean and Japanese are even more obsessive about getting things right, but here in Thai that penny never seems to drop.
Exactly!

Thank you, Oakdale, for expanding this topic to the larger problem.

I wonder, "How does sloppy work benefit the Thais? What is it in their cultural psyche that consistently leads to shoddy workmanship?"
If we could understand that underlying problem, maybe we could find solutions that would benefit our lives here.

By the way, someone may be tempted to throw out the lame reply, "If you don't like it, go back where you came from."
A more positive approach is to find ways to make the best with what we have here.
That's my goal in posting this topic.

-- Al
User avatar
Ratsima
Ace
Ace
Posts: 1141
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:53 am
Location: โคราช

Re: What would you have done? -- Chung won’t listen.

Post by Ratsima »

A few years back I hired a recommended handyman to build out our kitchen (in Korat). I drew and gave him detailed plans and purchased all the important materials: tiles, cabinets, oven, stove, etc.. His first mistake was to confuse the height and width of the counter, so I ended up with a lower and wider counter than I asked for. (In the end, the lower counter suits my wife….) His second mistake was to use 1/8" plywood for the concrete forms. Of course, these sagged and bent horribly under the weight of the wet concrete. Fortunately, that horrible mess is hidden. My wife was in tears. In the end I asked him to leave and finished the job by myself.
oakdale160 wrote: There are, of course, exceptions.
On the other hand, I just bought a condo in Cha Am. Everywhere I look I see superb workmanship. Everything fits. Measurements are precise. Materials are first class. Not one single place where I would have done things differently. Of course, these are early days….
Allenby
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:13 pm
Location: Bangkok

Re: What would you have done? -- Chung won’t listen.

Post by Allenby »

Ratsima wrote: ... a condo in Cha Am. Everywhere I look I see superb workmanship. Everything fits. Measurements are precise. Materials are first class.
I simply don't believe it.
I wonder what you haven't seen yet.

However, the topic here is not shoddy construction -- there are countless stories about that.
The question is, what to do or say in order to simply get things done correctly.

- Al
User avatar
dtaai-maai
Hero
Hero
Posts: 14180
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:00 pm
Location: UK, Robin Hood country

Re: What would you have done? -- Chung won’t listen.

Post by dtaai-maai »

Allenby wrote:However, the topic here is not shoddy construction ...
The question is, what to do or say, in order to simply get things done correctly.
It's likely to be a short thread in that case. There is no magic word.
This is the way
Allenby
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:13 pm
Location: Bangkok

Re: What would you have done? -- Chung won’t listen.

Post by Allenby »

.
dtaai-maai wrote:There is no magic word.
I don't agree with that discouraging perspective.

Not a magic word, but there certainly are ways to approach the situation -- ways compatible with Thai culture -- which often work.
If we discuss together, it can help all of us in similar circumstances.

One way, suggested previously, is to watch the entire time.
That may reduce some shoddy workmanship, but not all.
I did watch, but the workmen would not follow my requests, and walked off the job.

Another suggestion, already contradicted on this thread, is to get a good recommendation.
Yet in comments here, there is no consistency if recommendations help or not.
My own experience is that getting recommendations for workmen in Thailand is like throwing dice.

What I am learning from this conversation is how widespread the problem is.
I very much agree with the observation above from "oakdale160" that it is a cultural failure.
(He called it a "cultural difference", I specify "cultural failure", because it causes problems for everyone.)

There is one more factor in this which may also have some influence.
In my immediate situation, someone else was paying the workmen to do the installation.
I paid him; he paid them.
I think that was part of the problem.
In my past experiences, when money comes directly from me, and when I stay and watch all the time, the workmen do listen and do follow my requests.

What other positive actions can we take when dealing with Thai workmen?

- Al
centermid7
Banned
Banned
Posts: 629
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:43 pm

Re: What would you have done? -- Chung won’t listen.

Post by centermid7 »

Allenby wrote:.
dtaai-maai wrote:There is no magic word.

One way, suggested previously, is to watch the entire time.
That may reduce some shoddy workmanship, but not all.
I did watch, but the workmen would not follow my requests, and walked off the job.

- Al
It occurs to me that if that is the case you would not want them there anyway and the sooner they are gone the better. I would probably help them pack their tools and silently be glad that the door didn't bang 'em on the butt on their way out.
User avatar
STEVE G
Hero
Hero
Posts: 12798
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:50 am
Location: HUA HIN/EUROPE

Re: What would you have done? -- Chung won’t listen.

Post by STEVE G »

Allenby wrote:
Ratsima wrote: ... a condo in Cha Am. Everywhere I look I see superb workmanship. Everything fits. Measurements are precise. Materials are first class.
I simply don't believe it.
I wonder what you haven't seen yet.

However, the topic here is not shoddy construction -- there are countless stories about that.
The question is, what to do or say in order to simply get things done correctly.

- Al
The simple answer is that you can pay a lot more money, there are quality craftsmen available in Thailand, I've stayed in five star hotels that are immaculately finished but they pay serious money for that type of work, probably on par with what you would expect to pay in the West. If you don't do that you're basically going to end up with untrained people working as handymen and not craftsmen.
Post Reply