New law, negative effect?

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hogus
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Post by hogus »

Well, Burger, I asked for clarification and the answers were more than opaque in my eyes.
If anything is common practice, it doesn't mean that this is a riskless way for foreigners to "own" land & house, right?

If I have not been registered officially as an owner in any land office or other official authority, I'm also no owner!!!

Nevertheless, in the practice described by you, I have paid a full purchase price, but must hope that there is no bankruptcy or cunning management of the Thai-Company, right?
That I don't need to visit any land office to register myself or my investment is another sign for me, that the so called "common practice" is just another way to circumvent existing land laws, but with even a higher risk as I'd have, if I go the discussed and questionable company-route by myself.

As you said, common areas belong to the developer/site management...I'd like to add "as everything".
A possible buyer just have a private contract in his hands, and if anything is going worst with the developer company any investment will be gone totally, perhaps.

I never said anything about the legality; I just wonder that there are really people, which like to invest in so risky ways.
But, maybe I love my money too much to separate from it in the descripted ways? :mrgreen:

If you ever know a legal and trustful way to become owner of a house & land, proven by the land office, I'll be the first, which w'd be very thankful to get any information about this, so that I can get my own house in Thailand finally!

:cheers:
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tuktukmike
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Post by tuktukmike »

Several of us were talking about this subject today in Crawfords.

One angle that came up but i do not know if possable.

Could The Thai Banks become the holders of your land title.

This way as a customer they could maybe make a charge for this service and draw up a lease for the land,

They have a simular scheme with the Thai Elite card where if purchased you are allowed 1 rai of land on the condition that they hold your land papers.

Maybe not possable but there must be a system along these lines.

Mike.
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Post by hogus »

Ok, Mike, that sounds interesting!

If a well-known Thai Bank holds the land title, it will reduce the risk to be fooled a lot!

That the Thai Elite Card offers similar ways I read already a couple of months ago.
Unfortunately, the price for the card and the yearly fees are a little bit high in my eyes, although a consideration is worth.

By the way, an easy way to find out about the worth of your investment is even to contact the Immigration Office, and ask whether they accept your investment as property-proof to get a longtime-visa, as they do for Elite Card and Condo-Owners already.
If the officers are saying "no", you can be sure, that something is going wrong.
lomuamart
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Post by lomuamart »

C'mon then.
If I sell in England, I'll have loads of money. How should I invest my millions?
Can anyone give me a good reason to buy property?
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malcolminthemiddle
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Post by malcolminthemiddle »

lomuamart wrote:C'mon then.
If I sell in England, I'll have loads of money. How should I invest my millions?
Can anyone give me a good reason to buy property?
Bit of a general question but if you are talking about a house in Hua Hin.

Because it has always been your dream to live in the house of your choice, you want to enjoy your investment, you are middle aged, you are happy to stay in Hua Hin and you can afford it.

Any more I think of I'll let you know.

Cheers
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Post by malcolminthemiddle »

Burger wrote:Malcominthemiddle wrote:
Wow, Never heard of that one before.
That's apparent Malcolm.
Such a scenario would: 1. Have a substantial impact on the Developers cash flow (establishment and maintenance of numerous companies).
No, setting up a company is a relatively minimal amount.
2. Offer no benefit to a Thai buyer who would not need a company to buy and in any case why establish pre-emptive companies before knowing who your customers are?
Read the posts, this is mainly aimed at houses that farangs purchase. A Thai buyer can go to the land office and buy from a company, no problem!?
3. Further aggravate those laws now under discussion especially should the developer choose to use the same "nominated Thai share holders" (now being investigated), throughout the multiple companies you describe.
No, it alleviates it as no farangs have to visit the land office.
And what about all the common areas and access, who do these belong to?
The developer/site management company as per normal!?

Burger
Burger,

Not only would there be the company registration and maintenance costs but in addition the costs of cutting and transferring the land and any taxes due as a result of both transfers.

It is true, the Developers’ exposure to these costs could be reduced by either sharing the costs or passing all of them onto the other party as a condition of the sale, but either way these additional costs, which may even not be necessary, are not minimal.

Whether a Thai can buy from a company or not is not the issue, the whole idea of a pre-emptive company to facilitate the sale to foreigners not only provides further evidence of attempts to circumvent the law but could be construed to be discriminatory since all plots are allocated to their own pre-emptive company.

Irrespective of whether a foreign buyer may not have to visit the Land Office, (further evidence of circumvention as noted by Hogus), the problem of Nominated Thai Shareholders still remains. The only change is that the Developer has transferred the problem to the buyer along with the shares of the pre-emptive company. While at the same time the foreign buyer is now surrounded by land that includes common facilities and access to his property that belongs to another company over which he has no jurisdiction?

Do you know of an actual project in Thailand established this way or is it something you just over heard in the bar?
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Post by Burger »

Hogus wrote:
If I have not been registered officially as an owner in any land office or other official authority, I'm also no owner
Hogus,

The land is registered to the company you are a shareholder of.
It's the same as if you set up the company yourself.

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Post by Burger »

Burger,
Not only would there be the company registration and maintenance costs but in addition the costs of cutting and transferring the land and any taxes due as a result of both transfers.
It is true, the Developers’ exposure to these costs could be reduced by either sharing the costs or passing all of them onto the other party as a condition of the sale, but either way these additional costs, which may even not be necessary, are not minimal.
Whether a Thai can buy from a company or not is not the issue, the whole idea of a pre-emptive company to facilitate the sale to foreigners not only provides further evidence of attempts to circumvent the law but could be construed to be discriminatory since all plots are allocated to their own pre-emptive company.
Irrespective of whether a foreign buyer may not have to visit the Land Office, (further evidence of circumvention as noted by Hogus), the problem of Nominated Thai Shareholders still remains. The only change is that the Developer has transferred the problem to the buyer along with the shares of the pre-emptive company. While at the same time the foreign buyer is now surrounded by land that includes common facilities and access to his property that belongs to another company over which he has no jurisdiction?
Do you know of an actual project in Thailand established this way or is it something you just over heard in the bar?
Malcolm,
Firstly, lets not confuse the set-up of a development/common areas etc with this, it is only whether the buyer goes to the land office to transfer land into his new company, or whether he takes over an already set-up new’ish company.

The cost of setting up a company and land transfer are carried out anyway on a development sale to a foreigner, only here the developer is paying for the company (25,000 Baht), not the buyer.
Re: A Thai buyer, the companies can be set-up at any time, ie: after a buyer is found. If it's a Thai buyer, the developers do not need to set up the company, they sell off the main project company.
Yes it still has nominated Thai shareholders, I wasn't implying it was a solution to that.
'Common areas' belonging to the project management company is normal, there is some kind of management contract that covers the usage etc.
I don't really want to debate all the finite points on here, I was just pointing out that this already occurs.


You wrote this yesterday:
The project land is never subdivided into individual house plots but remains whole whether that is made up of one or more Chanotes.
The Chanotes are in the name of the "Company" and remain an infinite asset of the company. At completion, a buyer, will be allocated the proportional number of shares within the company allocated to the house he is buying.
In short one project, one company, multiple share holders.
To sell your house, sell your shares.
So if you are saying no sub-dividing, therefore no seperate land papers (chanotes), then why are farangs going to land offices to transfer land papers into their wives/companies name ??
If you build an extension and a swimming pool and your house is now worth a million Baht more, do you get more shares ??
I don't understand.

Burger
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Post by hogus »

Burger,

hmmm...sorry, but it seems not to be the same, because if I set up my own company I've normally influence of the company-policy.
In the case described above I'm just a shareholder without any important way of influence or control.
If the Thai-company crashes down, my shares (and property) will do it, too.

As I said already, it seems to be more risky, than to go even the questionable company-route by myself.

The costs to set up this own company are peanuts, especially if I'm willing to invest some millions into a house-project.
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Post by Burger »

Hogus wrote:
hmmm...sorry, but it seems not to be the same, because if I set up my own company I've normally influence of the company-policy.
In the case described above I'm just a shareholder without any important way of influence or control.
If the Thai-company crashes down, my shares (and property) will do it, too.
Hogus,
I'm afraid you do not understand what I am saying.
If you set up your own 'foreign run' company you are a 49% shareholder with majority voting rights.
You buy shares of 49% shareholder in a 'Thai' company, it becomes a 'foreign run' company in which you are a 49% shareholder with majority voting rights.

Please try to understand before one of us dies *

Sorry to be blunt mate, no offence. :cheers:

Burger

*copyright Basil Fawlty
hogus
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Post by hogus »

Burger,
if you're young and fresh like me, you'll have a lot of further years hopefully.
Enough time to explain everything, which could leads for a better more understanding. :wink:

But all kiddings aside, if the developer-company (which is owner of everything, and pre-found for each estate-object another company) operates like a holding company, I’ll have 49% ownership of this sub-company, of course.
But, if the holding company will come into trouble, I could be, too, in my eyes.

Another relevant thing is, that the Immigration Office won’t accept my investment as property-proof.
How you can explain this, if I’m a legal owner and investor of anything?
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Post by Burger »

Hogus,

Nice reply :D
if the developer-company (which is owner of everything, and pre-found for each estate-object another company) operates like a holding company
No it doesn't operate like a holding company, therefore not an issue.
Another relevant thing is, that the Immigration Office won’t accept my investment as property-proof.
How you can explain this, if I’m a legal owner and investor of anything?
Not sure what you mean but the day you move into your house, you have a company which you control the voting rights for, exactly as if you'd bought the company yourself.

Can we stop now please, my head hurts.

Burger
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Post by hogus »

Burger wrote: Can we stop now please, my head hurts.
Burger
Was a hard night, huh???? :D
hogus
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Post by hogus »

Hey, Mr. Burger, seems you recovered already, because I see that you opened another similar thread.
http://www.huahinafterdark.com/forum/vi ... php?t=3578

1. Suggestion to the moderators: Would it not be efficient to put all 3 threads together?

2. Suggestion to Mr. Burger: If you quote from other websites, could it not be ingenious to add the links, too, because I suppose we all w'd like to read the interesting interpretations of Thai land law from diverse lawyers, real estate agents etc.

It could spice up our daily life more and more! :twisted:
In advance, sorry, to start being cynical !

:cheers:
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Lev
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Post by Lev »

Thought about joining the threads but it just seems to be the same few members arguing the same points so decided to let them take their own course.

What potential buyers need to know is that purchasing property in Thailand has always been a risk, since the clampdowns its just become a bigger risk.

As most people know we dont allow links to the thaivisa forum as its just a mirrored discussion over there with more people and more mayhem.
Last edited by Lev on Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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