Town bars moving

[JimmyGreaves]

I think relocating all the bars as is being speculated a good idea. The new G un tung Short time hotel on soi 94 with the karaoke and the bars conveniently situated on the lower floors. The surrounding areas could be developed into low cost staff housing and small workshops to repair and test essentials like sound systems and motorbikes.Elephants could be kept and walked in safety away from busy roads.All it needs is a petition from the local residents who would benefit from the amenities.

Totally agree, soi 94 would be a splendid location for all the beer bars. It's very spacious and has plenty of room for growth unlike bintabaht area. It would be great if the bars had a little more space between them so that you could really hear the load music without getting snippets of next door's bars tracks. Think it's a great idea for expansion. Bring it on soi 94. Property prices will go through the roof you lucky bleeders!

[tonymaroni]

[/quote]
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I think relocating all the bars as is being speculated a good idea. The new G un tung Short time hotel on soi 94 with the karaoke and the bars conveniently situated on the lower floors. The surrounding areas could be developed into low cost staff housing and small workshops to repair and test essentials like sound systems and motorbikes.Elephants could be kept and walked in safety away from busy roads.All it needs is a petition from the local residents who would benefit from the amenities.

Totally agree, soi 94 would be a splendid location for all the beer bars. It's very spacious and has plenty of room for growth unlike bintabaht area. It would be great if the bars had a little more space between them so that you could really hear the load music without getting snippets of next door's bars tracks. Think it's a great idea for expansion. Bring it on soi 94. Property prices will go through the roof you lucky bleeders!

Speculating where a businessman should move his business is not really a practical business question.

Getting paid for the business I own now is the first and only question before one even thinks about a move. My guess it is a hodgepodge of individual owners who own small lots on those Sois. Getting them all to agree to a move is so far off base it is laughable, no ill will intended.

[hhfarang]

Always wondered about who actually owns the land/plots that all the buildings are on. Is it just a 'mish-mash' of individual people owning individual properties or land, or is there someone who owns the land in large pieces and rents it all out to specific businesses etc for a certain lease time?

I was told by one bar owner that the area is owned by a few Thai families (who have owned it for generations) in large chunks consisting of four (smallest parcel) or more of the current bars each.

[littlebird]

I took a stroll up 94 yesterday. I cannot see whether this is viable mainly due to distance from town. The bar area only takes off in the evenings. Apart from the regulars, visitors to the area stroll/drink/whatever down there of an evening maybe after a meal, I do wonder if a lot of people would bother to take a tuktuk/motorcycle there and back to 94

[Super Joe]

Update from the meeting last night was that the bars have to turn music/lights down around midnight, then can carry on, don't know until what time though. Last night Bintabaht bars were still going full on at 1am without anything turned down!?

Speculating where a businessman should move his business is not really a practical business question. Getting paid for the business I own now is the first and only question before one even thinks about a move. My guess it is a hodgepodge of individual owners who own small lots on those Sois. Getting them all to agree to a move is so far off base it is laughable, no ill will intended.

Which party do you mean when you refer to 'business owners', Tony? The way I see it, the general arrangement for Bintabaht is:
1) Landlord - Thai person who owns the land, building and the actual bar business including it's name, say 'Suzy Wong Bar'.
2) Tenant - Owns the fixtures, fitting, stock etc. No registered lease, legal rights under law are 'hirer of property'.

The landlord for many of the Bintabaht bars may be that innocuous elderly lady chewing the red nut stuff outside that hotel, but she if far smarter than us, or our lawyers and has already planned for selling up for development, and included it in her tenancy agreements. The tenants running the bars, (from her contracts that I've read), have all agreed to vacate the building within 30 days of her notifying them, without compensation. Only they don't know it, from what I've seen.

It's widely touted that the majority of 'bar land' is owned by 4 or 5 families, so we could just be talking about a few businesses here, although it would be interesting to know the actual set-up re": this. If there are a few individual owners who have bought plots dotted around the block, even if it's 6no. making a majority, they will be controlled by the authories re: business practicies, which effectively means we're back to the 4 or 5

Again this is only 'touted', but it's believed that many in the families want to re-develop, some do not. I wouldn't have thought for one minute, that re-locating the bars (if it ever happened) will play any meaningful role in the process, apart from the point of view of public-relations, keeping the peace etc.

Does anyone know any concrete facts about who owns what strips of land?


SJ

[lomuamart]

I've been trying to remember how it was 13 years ago when I had a bar there, but my memory is sketchy and things may well have changed since then.
There were fewer bars in those days, but they were generally bigger (say 3 shop fronts that were eventually made into 3 separate bars. This happened to a number of places about 10 years ago, but I would reckon that the plot would still be singly owned).
From memory, the largest owners were those that had the Sukwilai and the new hotel. They also have J Jeans, King Bar and did have the plot that single shop front bars stood/stand on around Romantic - used to be Billy Wilson's old place. I think they might have had the place opposite that as well - used to be Tulip but I'm not sure what it is now.
Toro, in it's previous incarnations, was owned singly by an old lady who ran a corner shop opposite the seafood restaurants. Luck Luke's at the top was owned by a Bangkok lady who had Hog's Breath in Nana Plaza.
Toby Charnaud had the freehold - I believe - on the corner lot opposite the Toro. I'm not sure who's got that now.
Rose Bar and Celtic were also owned by one family, I'm think.
That's about all I can remember and as said it was a long time ago.

[kendo]

Craig the owner of the U-turn told me years ago that he has a 25 year lease on his bar.
I think if they redevelop this area it will ruin Hua Hin you can cater for single men and families alike for example Poonsuk Plaza 3 times a week they have a Philipino three piece belting out the songs allways busy.
I would like to see a few more of these type places to pop up.
When you move all the bars to one soi like Soi Cola in Surin or over the causeway in Lami it's like running the gauntlet that not everyone is comfortable with
Kendo.

[Korkenzieher]

I was told that that 25 year lease was vapour ware - it was (allegedly) available to a new buyer as a 'get-out' carrot for the existing holder (Craig) to offer. Not something I can prove.

I think most of the owners are quite happy with the leasing situation they have - turning round the same property every 2 or 3 years probably suits them. I can't see why they would ever sell the land and no major developer would go ahead without freehold on the land. So you would be reduced to piecemeal redevelopment. The only way this will happen IMHO is catastrophic redevelopment -fire, earthquake, flood clearing the lot away and forcing it by default.

[poosmate]

I can't see why they would ever sell the land

I can.
If as I suspect the value of the land has increased so much that a small bar could not afford the rent required to maintain a 10%? income.
High rise condo/shopping can generate much more revenue and location is the key factor here. Anyone like to hazard a guess to the value per rai?
50 million is mine.

[Korkenzieher]

10% of what? The nominal value of the land is largely irrelevant. If you have it, you keep collecting a couple of million baht every couple of years. What that means in terms of a return on investment is meaningless if the land was in ownership donkeys years ago - it is probably more on an annual basis than the land would have cost outright only a couple of decades ago. Once you sell the land, and realise the nominal value, whatever that is, your pension plan is your bank account, plain and simple. You have lost your cash generating asset.

[poosmate]

Maybe okay for an old timer. New blood ( sons daughters) will see it as a potentially huge asset gaining very little income.
Can't buy a Merc on the strength of a small rental income

[Korkenzieher]

If the smallest package (commented above) is 4 bars, I can't see that as a small income in any way. Add to that some creative accountancy and questionable business practice, and you're probably laughing all the way to the Merc factory! No question that there would be some who would see liquidating the asset value as an attractive option, but all of them at roughly the same time? Optimistic IMHO. Still, not too many people successfully second-guess the Thai mind-set, so I guess we will have to wait and see.

@Mods - suddenly a lot of the email notifier links seem to be broken.

[PeteC]

I think if it is a mall some deal will be made for the selling landowners to get free or very preferential prices on shop spaces within the mall that they can rent out to others. The developers could offer them a long leasehold, or even ownership of these sections. Same if a hotel concerning lobby/concourse shops. Pete

[Super Joe]

Craig the owner of the U-turn told me years ago that he has a 25 year lease on his bar.

I don't know Craig's set-up, but the majority of these small unit bar/restaurant/shop businesses are not registered at the land office on the land title, so any agreement past 3 years is limited to 3 years. The cause I read in two mates' contracts from one of the biggest landlords, had a 30 day notice clause should the landlord decide to sell the land. Not once they found a buyer and signed a contract, but should they 'decide to sell'

I think most of the owners are quite happy with the leasing situation they have - turning round the same property every 2 or 3 years probably suits them. I can't see why they would ever sell the land and no major developer would go ahead without freehold on the land. So you would be reduced to piecemeal redevelopment.

They might not want to sell. I would think the young ambitious members of the family would be happier with a 'hi-so' frequented 'boutique-hotel', with a fancy restaurant or wine bar on the front, rather than a sweaty bar with me, you and a couple of Norfern birds in it. Construction is relatively inexpensive here, and their 50m plot could become 150m overnight, and their monthly income might increase 20-fold from the current 150k/month (10 bars x 15k/month), to 3M Baht/month (30rooms x 5,000 Baht/night @ 65% occupancy).

They won't be happy when they see their mates at the seafood restaurants (on platforms near the pier), give the same 150k every month to their staff.... from tips. I kid you not



Maybe they could earn even more if a condo block.


Maybe they want to sell 50% stake to a developer partner who funds the build.


Maybe two brothers want to sell to get their 25m each out of the land, to go off separately and buy that 15m beachfront land at Pranburi and build a hotel/condo etc.

SJ

[STEVE G]

Another factor in Asia is if someone with 'influence' is somehow involved with plans to redevelop the area in which case the decision making for the land owners might not just come down to purely financial matters.
Obviously if the right people were involved they could actually just get the authorities to simply close down all the bargirl bars anyway as strictly speaking what they're doing isn't even completely legal although they might tread on a few toes doing that.
They could also selectively enforce laws in one area and not another and just wait for the bars to move anyway.