Books

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lomuamart
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Books

Post by lomuamart » Sat May 14, 2011 6:58 pm

I've just been through 2 pages on this forum and I couldn't see an appropriate thread so apologies if I'm treading old ground.
However, IMHO there are books that are instantly forgettable, some that are page turners and occasionally there's one or two that really make me think.
One of those was "The Rape of Nanking". It's a harrowing account of the Japanese invasion of that Chinese capital in 1937.
Truly terrible and all hushed up by the Japanese, the Americans, the British etc etc as the Cold War started after 1945.
Anyway, I'll never forget reading that book. History, I know, but it says a lot without being critical. The book just tries to understand and mark things down for posterity before we all forget.

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Re: Books

Post by dtaai-maai » Sat May 14, 2011 7:06 pm

Books are a Good Thing.
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Re: Books

Post by Piesat42 » Sat May 14, 2011 7:07 pm

"Hushed up"?

An accurate estimation of the death toll in the massacre has not been achieved because most of the Japanese military records on the killings were deliberately destroyed or kept secret shortly after the surrender of Japan in 1945. The International Military Tribunal of the Far East estimates more than 200,000 casualties in the incident

The International Military Tribunal for the Far East (IMTFE), also known as the Tokyo Trials, the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal or simply as the Tribunal, was convened on April 29, 1946, to try the leaders of the Empire of Japan for three types of crimes: "Class A" crimes were reserved for those who participated in a joint conspiracy to start and wage war, and were brought against those in the highest decision-making bodies; "Class B" crimes were reserved for those who committed "conventional" atrocities or crimes against humanity; "Class C" crimes were reserved for those in "the planning, ordering, authorization, or failure to prevent such transgressions at higher levels in the command structure."
My mind wandered and never came back :(

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Re: Books

Post by pharvey » Sat May 14, 2011 7:45 pm

Well, on the actual event detailed in the ''Rape of Nanking'', I assure you it's not been forgotten in Nanjing (As it's known these days rather than Nanking). I stay there on a fairly regular basis as we have fabricators and suppliers based in the area. There's an obvious hatred of the Japanese in China - bizarrely in many cases around the country, I don't believe the younger generations could tell you or give you any reasons in detail for this hatred....... a different case in Nanjing however.
I've not read the book, but may well just have a look.

Back to the books - which I guess is the reason for the thread :D

I like a wide range of both authors and subject matter - and have a number of favorites which I'll have to have a think about for a future post.

Bill Bryson, Tom Sharpe, Michael Crichton, John Grisham, Arthur C Clarke, Steven King, James Herbert, Jefferey Deaver, Frederick Forsyth........ the list can go on!! Do have to say though I'm currently re-reading my Tom Sharpe collection - absolutely superb. A long way away from the ''Rape of Nanking'' subject matter I know........... BUT :D :thumb:
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Re: Books

Post by sandman67 » Sun May 15, 2011 7:31 am

In the same mould, and concerning the same period of history I recommend FACTORIES OF DEATH which details the activities of Unit 731 in Harbin, Manchuria. Makes for grim reading, although the real sickening part is the US cover up of their activities in return for the results of their "experiments".



I have an e-book copy and will post it to my 4shared account for easy download if anyone is interested. PM me and Ill post it.

In terms of history books I love the narrative history style, so Shelby Foote's epic 3 volume history of the US Civil War, or Tom Hollands three books MILLENIUM, RUBICON and PERSIAN FIRE are my faves.

If you are looking for e-books I highly recommend http://www.ebook30.com - a vast collection of all sorts in multiple languages.

As with films if there is an e-book you cant find let me know by PM and I will go looking for you on the more obscure members only boards I frequent, or look on my hard drive where I store all my own.

Tom Sharpes INDECENT EXPOSURE and RIOTOUS ASSEMBLY are two of my favorite comedy books...have me choking on my coffee reading them.

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Re: Books

Post by lomuamart » Sun May 15, 2011 8:46 am

I can remember when the Tom Sharp books came out. I'd be crammed into a sweaty underground train on my daily slog to work and someone would laugh.
Outrageous, how can you laugh in conditions like that on your way to work?
If they were reading a book, it was probably a Tom Sharp. Porterhouse Blues wasn't bad either.

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Re: Books

Post by Homer » Sun May 15, 2011 1:07 pm

sandman67 wrote:Makes for grim reading, although the real sickening part is the US cover up of their activities in return for the results of their "experiments".
It bugs me when people use the wrong word or phrase. The experiments were not covered up, they were classified. The cold war started before WW2 ended. The US needed bio weapons because they knew or feared the Soviets had them. Letting your enemy know what you know about cutting edge weapon systems is considered dangerously stupid.

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Re: Books

Post by dtaai-maai » Sun May 15, 2011 1:31 pm

One man's bread is another man's poison.
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Re: Books

Post by sandman67 » Sun May 15, 2011 1:43 pm

Not that this is an argument thread, but what the hell....you pressed the f*cking button. If theres one thing I cant f*cking stand its history revisionists and apologists for inhuman scumbags.

OK sparky....a cover up IS what was conducted.

The US guaranteed Shiro Ishii and his crew of Mengele clones not only protection from any prosecution for war crimes, (Thanks for that McArthur you twat may you rot in hell)....including running tests on captured US and UK soldiers and Russian civilians, but also helped cover up the very existance of Unit 731 and its factories of death. That active denial program carried on till the 80s when they finally coughed to what they had done after years of denial.

THAT is a cover up. The results of the tests...the intelligence...were classified. Granting immunity to war criminals is .... a cover up.

Strangely enough that pariah of freedom of information and enemy at the gates you appear to castigate so easily, Soviet Russia, not only tried some of these scumbags, but they also published the transcripts of the trials in multiple languages. Till the 80s that was the primary source of intelligence on the actvities in Harbin.

Actively guaranteeing that the perpetrators evaded justice and destroying all records that Unit 731 existed as far as the post war War Crimes Tribunal was concerned, including on the one occasion mention of the unit accidentally slipped out in court pressuring the prosecution to withdraw the statement.... that my friend is what is called in common vernacular a COVER UP.

second....
The US needed bio weapons because they knew or feared the Soviets had them
Despite the results of the tests carried out by Unit 731 clearly demonstrating that biological weapons were virtually useless, almost impossible to deploy accurately and safely, totally uncontrollable once released, and a liability to the manufacturer/storer and user?

Despite the fact that such weapons were then and are now illegal under international law?

Despite the fact that what they did was totally unconscionable, disgusting and made a complete mockery of their so called moral high ground?

Riiiiiiight.

And I suppose you think Domino Theory was correct, and Mutually Assured Destruction was also a great idea?

quite frankly I find your assertion laughable, if a little insulting.

You go on with your rosy tinted history revision excersise and word game semantics. I instead prefer to tell the truth and cry J'Accuse.... and if you dont like the way the US gets pillioried for having its piggy little fingers in most every ugly dirty shitpile of the 20thC thats just a damn shame. I suggest you dont read any history books chum. Maybe you should get your history from Mike Huckabees exceptionalist revisionist DVD series.... might make you sniffle a bit less.

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"To sin by silence makes cowards of men."

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Re: Books

Post by sandman67 » Sun May 15, 2011 10:30 pm

Sorry I lost it there guys....bad morning

Anyway

http://www.4shared.com/document/4P5l8Rx ... -_Fac.html

Help yourself

Sheldon Harris - Factories of Death:- Japanese Biological Warfare, 1932-1945, and the American Cover-Up (PDF Format of Paperback Edition)
In Manchuria, before and during World War II, the Japanese army conducted
numerous, and quite horrific, biological warfare experiments upon live human
beings. After the war, the Japanese scientists who had been engaged in these
activities were granted immunity, by the US army, from investigation for war
crimes, in return for the results of their experiments.

Sheldon Harris’s book is a controversial investigation of the activities of the
Japanese scientists involved in these experiments and the subsequent US
cover-up. The author covers the sensitive areas concerning which scientists
were involved and who in the upper echelons of the army and the political
establishment knew of the activities going on inside Manchuria. Harris also
investigates the claims that allied POWs were subject to experimentation. In
the second part of the book the questions concerning why the scientists were
not prosecuted as war criminals and the nature of the deal that was struck with
the US occupation authorities are examined.

Sheldon Harris has produced a work that is backed up by rigorous fieldwork
and research in China. He has also obtained access to US and KGB archives
containing material previously unavailable to other academics. This book
should appeal to those interested in Japanese history, the ethics of scientists
and the conduct of armies in war.

Sheldon H.Harris is Emeritus Professor of History, California State
University, Northridge. In 1984 he became involved in research on Japanese
biological warfare experimentation in Manchuria. His research led him to
deliver several papers to international conferences on science and ethics and
to the publication of a number of scholarly articles that have aroused
considerable interest in the United States, Europe, Japan and China.
:cheers:
"Science flew men to the moon. Religion flew men into buildings."

"To sin by silence makes cowards of men."

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Re: Books

Post by pharvey » Sun May 15, 2011 10:47 pm

Cheers SM, much appreciated - downloading now and am looking forward to reading through. I'm sure I can't reciprocate on movies or books, but when I finally hit the shores of HH again in December, will gladly procure a pint or 2!! :cheers: :cheers:
"You've got to get your first tackle in early, even if it's late". Ray Gravell :wink:

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Re: Books

Post by Homer » Mon May 16, 2011 9:21 am

sandman67 wrote:Not that this is an argument thread, but what the hell....you pressed the f*cking button. If theres one thing I cant f*cking stand its history revisionists and apologists for inhuman scumbags.
One of the things I hate is when somebody goes off on a baseless rant against the US of A.

Words have specific meanings with often subtle differences. I sometimes correct people but never argue word meanings with them because that's what dictionaries are for. It's been my experience that those who didn't routinely keep a dictionary handy for all their reading from their teens until out of school/university are blissfully unaware that similar words are not freely interchangeable.

sandman67 wrote:THAT is a cover up. The results of the tests...the intelligence...were classified. Granting immunity to war criminals is .... a cover up.
The US granted immunity in exchanged for knowledge. The cold war had already started. Not letting the Soviets get ahead in biological warfare was in the interests of national security. The greater good was served by granting immunity. I've argued with many people who were unable or unwilling to acknowledge they understood the concept of the greater good. I believe they do that because they know it puts a dagger through the heart and soul of the foundation of many of their beliefs.
sandman67 wrote:that my friend is what is called in common vernacular a COVER UP.
The common vernacular comes out of the mouths of knuckle draggers. Doesn't follow that cover up and classified have the same meaning, both literally and semantically

sandman67 wrote:Despite the results of the tests carried out by Unit 731 clearly demonstrating that biological weapons were virtually useless, almost impossible to deploy accurately and safely, totally uncontrollable once released, and a liability to the manufacturer/storer and user?
"I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward." - Thomas Edison

sandman67 wrote:Despite the fact that such weapons were then and are now illegal under international law?

Despite the fact that what they did was totally unconscionable, disgusting and made a complete mockery of their so called moral high ground?
The worst thing that can happen to a nation is to lose a war. The second worst thing is to win one. There are times when one's opponent(s) violate international law, moral law and the core of human decency that separate us from the evil or insane. At that time, hitting them back the same way is the best military strategy.
sandman67 wrote:You go on with your rosy tinted history revision excersise and word game semantics.
The refuge of one who uses inappropriate and semantically loaded words is to say it's just word games while denying he is doing the same.

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Re: Books

Post by dtaai-maai » Mon May 16, 2011 9:52 am

"I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward." - Thomas Edison
You make it all sound very noble, Homer. If Mr Edison knew the context in which you were using his words, I'm sure he'd be turning in his grave.
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Re: Books

Post by buksida » Mon May 16, 2011 1:06 pm

Back to books ... I'm currently working my way through Conrad's Lord Jim ... classic stuff.
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Re: Books

Post by dtaai-maai » Mon May 16, 2011 2:06 pm

Well, I'm not (very) ashamed to confess I'm reading something by Dean Koontz...
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