Permaculture and sustainability in HH

[wenshidi]

What kind of permaculture projects are operating in and around Hua Hin?
I was think specifically about community farms, progressive orchards or maybe even solar villages, but I would be pleased to learn about anything else interesting that is going on here?
Big or small scale, it makes no difference. Anything from back yard aquaponics all the way up to alternative currencies, I am always fascinated to see what is developing in local areas.

[Frank Hovis]

If you go out towards the bypass on the 1004 or is it 1010 ( the Springfield road anyway), cross the bypass and take the first right then about 500m down that road is a large solar farm. I think it's something to do with one of the princesses but I'm not 100% sure.

[Dannie Boy]

What kind of permaculture projects are operating in and around Hua Hin?
I was think specifically about community farms, progressive orchards or maybe even solar villages, but I would be pleased to learn about anything else interesting that is going on here?
Big or small scale, it makes no difference. Anything from back yard aquaponics all the way up to alternative currencies, I am always fascinated to see what is developing in local areas.

There is a hydroponic "farm" about a km up soi 102 on the left hand side. At the moment they are only growing about 4 types of lettuce but they talk about expanding their business. You pick the lettuce yourself and they last about a week in the fridge. Normal price is 15 baht each but discounts for buying more.

[deepee]

wenshidi,
I don't think many people realize that what they seeing is permaculture in practice when they pass by those so many land properties tended to by the strugglers of Thai society.You know the folks that have to get along and provide as much as they can of their own plots to keep themselves fed and maybe spin up a baht or two for the bills by selling or trading some of their surplus produce. I find them facinating and am always on the lookout for new ideas and possibilities . Sad to think that just about the whole of Thailand was once one big permaculture demonstration site.

[Frank Hovis]

Good point but....times they are a-changin'.
These days the local 'farmers' maybe with a few dozen rai or such are all scrimping a living using manual labour to grow rice, pineapples, tomatoes, cucumbers, spring onions etc with the odd cow thrown in but they do still use the heavy agro-business fertilizers and probably in a much less efficient way than a mechanized farm would. Cows all get antibiotics and growth hormones, and again probably not delivered with the same accuracy as they would in an industrial farm.

I don't think the locals were what Wenshidi was looking for, in fact they might be the very antithesis of what she was hoping for as they are probably more environmentally unsound (on a technical basis, rather than a romantic 'olde worlde' basis) than a well run, mechanized farm, however they do provide jobs for a large part of the population that would otherwise have very little to do.

[Takiap]

Good reply Frank

Locals with relatively small swaths of land are not a very good example at all. In fact, even many of those living on tiny bits of land know very little about growing healthy food that isn't contaminated with chemicals in one form of the other. I have personally seen many rural Thais watering their small vegetable patches with the water they've used for washing clothes. Trying to tell them that modern washing powders contain chemicals which should not be used for watering edible produce is similar to you trying to fly to the moon on the back of a butterfly. They simply see you as a daft Farang because the plants grow, so what's the problem.

Grey water, as it's known, can and should, in my opinion be used in the garden, but certainly not for edible crops. also, as you have stated, commercial farms will use the least amount of chemicals possible, not because they're concerned about public health, but because they're concerned about profits.


Composting is another alien concept in Thailand. The average Thai much prefers those little packets of fertilizer pellets. Maybe in the past the Thais were a good example, but not anymore. Sure you get some who want good clean produce, but most couldn't care less, as is the case in the west.


Having said all that, there are still many Thais who grow a few vegetables in their gardens in the way they should be grown, but for how much longer is anyone's guess.


As far as livestock is concerned........cattle are rarely given medication in Thailand, except in the more built up sort of areas where the government can enforce such practices. When I first moved to Hua Hin the local cow man up the road was left to his own devices, and they cows simply grazed in the fields. Then big brother came along, and in the name of public safety, all the cows now have to be tagged and medicated.


Pork.......I eat loads of pork, but at the same time, I believe it's probably the worst meat to be eating here given the sheer size of the pork industry. I don't for a minute believe pigs aren't medicated.

Chicken - The same as pork really, which is also probably why many Thais and Chinese are willing to pay more for regular backyard chickens. We raise a few chickens and I can honestly say I've gone off store bought chicken. I'll still eat it, but I certainly wouldn't go out and buy it myself.


We also grow a few vegetables, and yes, they're not picture perfect in appearance, but at least I know there's no trace of any chemicals. Garden pests are a huge problem here, but so far I've managed to resist the urge to spray. I've also found that the pests only really strike once the crops start reaching maturity, so harvesting before then works fine. Some vegetables are also easier to grow than others, so you may have to settle for a "restricted" menu.......lol.


Do home grown vegetables taste any different? Absolutely. I've cut up cucumbers from the garden and from the markets and then asked my wife and in-laws to tell me which is which. On each and every occasion, they got it right.


Anyone got advice, it'll be greatly appreciated.

[deepee]

Hey guys lets make sure we are on the same page here.For a start lets not make the common assumption that permaculture(Pc) is a another name for organic gardening because it goes on well beyond that. Pc is about the conscious design for we humans of productive ecosystems.It not only encompasses the place we live on it also continues on with that place and it's relationship and impact on it's surroundings and then onto the total environment as a whole.
Typically a good example of a Pc system at base level, ie the plot we live on, would demonstrate little or no inputs onto site but have a positive suplus coming off the site.For a start apart from being highly productive it should mimmick the natural enviroment with diversity (not monoculturalistic),easily adaptable to changes,incorporate recycling and from the human point be supportive of community.
With my reference to the traditional small Thai land plot you should be able to observe these traits and, from the point of view of Pc designer, you can see the typical zones of design at work too.
Properties producing only one or two items( monocultures) or heavily reliant on outside inputs such as fuel for the operation of machinery could hardly be termed as being permaculture orientated or sustainable for that matter.
One of the first things you would come across in researching Pc is the importance of observation . So if you do get the chance have a look at some of the plots out there.We can all learn from them.

[Frank Hovis]

Properties producing only one or two items( monocultures) or heavily reliant on outside inputs such as fuel for the operation of machinery could hardly be termed as being permaculture orientated or sustainable for that matter.

I think this sums up the majority of Thai small scale farming.
I understand permaculture to mean 'farming without the need for (a lot of ) external resources'


The typical lifecycle of a Thai farming season, in our region, goes as follows

Planting...
Get a tractor in to turn the soil
Apply copius amounts of inorganic fertilizer
Lay plastic sheeting in the troughs (or ridges)
Punch hole in plastic sheeting
Plant seed/seedling of a single crop (with shop bought seed)
Water copiously (lucky if you are gravitationally south of a water source, pump it otherwise)
Use nylon mesh and bamboo canes for climbing crops

Growing...(repeat as necessary without doing any soil analysis)
Spray with pesticide
Water copiously
Add fertilizer
Water copiously

Harvesting...
Get a lot of people in to pick the produce
Load it into plastic bags, or loose on a truck
Ship it on a truck, either to a factory or to point of sale

Post-harvesting...
Remove bamboo canes for re-use
Collect as much plastic and nylon webbing as possible
Pile nylon/plastic and dead stalks/plants at the end of the furrows
Set pile on fire
Use tractor to turn over soil

A few weeks later start all over again with a different crop.

There is a heavy reliance on external resources, much of it using a lot of petrochemical resource.

There are some 'organic farmers' around, but they still rely on tractors, black plastic, pumped water, nylon webbing etc and still burn any waste. If anything, small scale Thai farms are moving away from natural methods and if labour becomes more expensive than machinery they will follow the same model as western farmers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining that this is the way Thai's farm nor suggesting that they should go back to the 18th century with their farming methods. I'm just pointing out that what you might think is a bit backwards (and therefore automatically more green than western farming) isn't actually as backwards as many like to think. The only real difference between here and the western world is that labour is still cheaper than machinery although I haven't seen rice being picked by hand in this area for years.

[wenshidi]

Although their have already been many insightful comments on thus topic, my own thoughts on the subject are as follows.
Although I do see a lot of Thais using traditional gardening techniques, I am tempted to think that they are using them out of need. more than out of active choice. Certainly we do see many good individual practices at work, but it is very rare that they are combined into an overall long term plan. For example, there are many backyard chickens here but I find it hard to believe that the farmer/house owner has sat down in advance and thought carefully how these birds are going to fit in to his overall backyard ecology. A permaculturalist on the other hand, would have a master plan in mind, and will try to make sure that his chickens play as multifunctional role as possible. For them a chicken has a far greater role to play as a soil biologist than as a Sunday roast.
Many backyard gardeners are keen to maximise their harvests from a few particular plants, whereas a permaculturalist is more likely to try to optimise his entire eco system, encouraging natures inherent synergies, rather than trying to fast track specific elements. He or she thinks of his garden as a holistic system, where the soil and the compost heaps are living entities, just as important as the chickens or the goats. If the soil is healthy then everything else will flourish in turn.
A permie will sit down and spend as much time as possible on his initial design rather than just adding piecemeal components in the hope of improving his productivity. Tacking on a few extra species here and their will certainly have an impact, but it will not be anything like doing a complete design from scratch. As the founder of Permaculture, Bill Mollison so famously said, more time spent on design means more time to spend in the hammock.
In developing countries, I see that a lot of backyard farming is very hand to mouth. Permaculturalists on the other hand, thanks to their much greater access to information, think on a much longer term basis. They look at feeding the entire system rather than just feeding their families. I have seen permaculture designs where species succession stretches well into the next century and even beyond. Designers try to create as many virtuous circles as possible, paying as much attention to support species, mulch crops and underlying biology as they do to their actual producers.

One of the earlier posters commented that he was having problems with bugs and pests. This reminded me of Sepp Holzer's curmudgeonly comment, that a farmer who is still having problems with pests is simply failing to recognise their legitimate roles in the overall ecology of their garden. Profound and philosophical I suppose, but not particularly helpful.
More practical tips might include employing planting systems that do not incorporate straight rows. These tend to be like supermarket aisles for feeding insects. Plant species that naturally repel some insects. Marigolds are the most famous, but Google will soon turn up plenty more. There are plenty of natural pesticides such as neem or molasses, and I am sure that there are some favourites here in Thailand too.
Again a quote from Bill Mollison. A lady approached him at a lecture and burnt his ears with her complaints the slug problems that she was facing. “Madam”, he replied, “You do not have a slug problem, you have a duck deficiency!”

[Takiap]

Interesting thread, but I'm not to sure about this Mr Mollison chap........lol. I wonder if he ever kept ducks to control snails/slugs. If he did, he wouldn't have had any crops for long anyway since the ducks would have wiped everything out.


Backyard chickens (at least the Thai type) are the most effective type of pest control the world has ever seen, but at the same time, they destroy everything else in the garden as well. Of course you can move them around in a tractor, but then their pest control abilities are reduced.


Seriously though, apart from my two small vegetable patches which the chickens can't get into, our property is virtually pest free. Anything that moves gets eaten. We can only thank our lucky stars that chickens are as small as they are.


Anyway, I do hope this thread keeps going because I'm sure I'll pick up a few good pointers from those in the know.

[deepee]

Although I do see a lot of Thais using traditional gardening techniques, I am tempted to think that they are using them out of need. more than out of active choice.

What better reason than a need to do so( survival maybe).Thais have the very enviable quality of not having to do something unless they really need to(= work /no hammock).
I suspect little thought on their behalf at this point as they are acting on an inherited instinct,they do it the way their fore-folk have done, tried and trusted.Thais have up till now have had a more intimate relationship with their surroundings than many may have reading this post have been lucky to witness. If they stuffed it up they either had to work harder and/or went hungry.Things are rapidly changing now.But you still see examples around if you are prepared to look.
I think from the point of view of us so called newbies who have lost our links with our environment we do need to sit down and work thu it from A to Z again.

[STEVE G]

This is an interesting topic and something I know very little about. In fact everything I know about agriculture comes from what I've seen on Thai farms in Issan as I've spent the vast majority of my life working at airports surrounded by concrete!
Seeing as most small scale farms don't actually generate any reasonable amount of income, it's occurred to me that with worldwide rising food prices they would be better used as 'market gardens' to grow food for the family rather than trying to make money out of them, ( that usually ends up as debt ).
What I would be interested to know is the amount of land that would be required to do this per person fed, also taking into account that you would need to build substantial amounts of irrigation pond due to lack of water for much of the year.

[Takiap]

Steve, I also know very little about this but I have done quite a bit of reading up and so on. I think if you really knew what you were doing, you wouldn't require very much land at all to feed the average family.The amount of fresh produce which can be grown in a few square meters is quite unbelievable, but again, you would need to know what you're doing.

People who do this all the time make it look and sound so easy, but when you don't have any experience, it's bloody difficult.....lol.


I'm busy trying to grow a few things myself, and I'm having to learn as I go along. So far I've found that most of the things I planted/grown can be grown all year round, but they need to be grown in different parts of the garden depending on what time of the year it is. I've also accepted the fact that you're better off growing the types of vegetables many Thais grow in their backyards. If you do this, you do get to eat some home grown produce, and win some street cred as well...lol.


As someone else has mentioned, Thais don't like to work if they don't have to, so they're not about to grow anything that requires a huge amount work/care. If they're growing certain vegetables in the garden, it's because those vegetables are easy to grow. Examples would be:

Chili
Chinese water spinach
Wing beans
Yard long beans
Cucumber
All types of basil

These are all dead easy to grow, and they grow quickly in full sun as long as you give them water. For example, I planted five wing bean seeds, and although they took about two months to start producing, we've had so many wing beans we ended up giving loads away. Yard long beans are the same, but you need to plant more since they don't produce quite like the wing beans do.

Chinese Cabbage has also been very easy to grow, as has Chinese Kale.


So, there are many things you can grow here without too much effort, but even then, you have to learn as you go along, unless of course you know someone who has experience.

[deepee]

you would need to build substantial amounts of irrigation pond due to lack of water for much of the year.

Selecting plants suited to the local climate would be a sensible starting point STEVE G.Then you could look at ways of attracing water onto site such as nearby road runoff or collecting rain from roofs. Trying to then reduce the rate of escapment of water from your site would be another thing to consider. The cheapest method of storing water is in the soil itself btw.
For a start improving your soils will increase absorbancy and holding capacity.Tricks like digging pitts or swales on slopes slow water run off and help direct it into your soils for storage.Shading from trees and mulching the surface are other ways too.
Looking at efficient ways of applying water to plants can save too. Selecting dripper irrigation as opposed to sprinklers is one way that comes to mind if you need to water.
And another rather interesting way my wife came across by accident of getting water into and improving the soil was when she planted those long daikon or icicle radishes .They went mad and self seeded so next crop we had so many that we ended up with heaps dying in the ground.As they grew they cracked the soil and when they decomposed they left considerable punctures all over the ground and when it rained they helped suck up the water into the soil.

[wenshidi]

Yield is limited only by your imagination, not by your space or your experience

Take a look at this site for some inspiration

http://urbanhomestead.org/urban-homestead

Garden Size: ~ 1/10 acre (3,900 sq.ft. / ~ 66' x 66')
Garden Diversity: Over 350 different vegetables, herbs, fruits & berries
Productivity: Up to 6,000 lbs harvest annually on 1/10 acre

Climate in Hua Hin is much better than Pasadena so you should easily be able to improve on this.

Chris