Tin shacks

[sargeant]

I took a friend with me to help build a new tin shack down by the railway tracks last Saturday, that’s where I feel at home, among friends, I have had for many years . This is what I call the real Thailand the real salt of the earth people, poor yes, proud certainly and with all the same dreams and aspirations for their futures and their children’s futures that you all have.
This is where I get my view of Thai politics and the feelings of how the Thai people think about us farangs. It has taken numerous weddings, birthday parties and Monk hood parties/ceremonies, Moving tin shacks and rebuilding them (Lots and Lots of Chang) and many years to gain their trust and for them to slowly speak somewhat more openly to me (I am however fully aware that even now they are still on some issues telling me what they think I want to hear) I could go on and on reciting what they say but individual sound bites don’t prove anything, for me it is the fact that over the last 3 years there has been a gradual but gaining momentum erosion in respect for farangs.
It is more that they are starting to feel that we don’t respect them, their culture or their way of life and the farangs want to change Thailand to farang.
It is the detrimental erosion that worries me I could soapbox all day on the individual grains of sand filling the egg timer in themselves minor/very minor insults but getting heavier every time a new grain of sand is added to the pile.

My friend now has a different view of Thailand and its lovely people and will probably spend a few extra moments taking the Thai people more into his consideration before he acts or speaks. Hopefully so will people who read this and stop and think a bit.

[Wanderlust]

sarge,
I haven't come across this feeling myself, and I don't know anyone from the tin shacks, but I suspect you are right. However I think this situation occurs inevitably in all holiday destinations, whether it is in 'exotic Thailand' or Blackpool, 'noted for fresh air and fun'. I'm sure that the tolerance of the antics by the (Thai) weekenders from Bangkok has worn thin amongst your survey group as well; in fact I would be interested to hear their thoughts if you would be so kind to ask them and then post their responses. I remember talking to a resident of Brighton some years ago who detested the people who swarmed there every time the sun came out (and even when it didn't) because they littered, parked badly, drove badly and generally acted without respect to the town or it's people. This is the same reaction I think, but it is just easier to distinguish the farangs. I try to act with respect to everybody, but I know I have made some mistakes before here, and I would doubt there are many who can claim otherwise. The town gets busier all the time so the impression of farangs gets magnified. Holidaymakers often 'let their hair down' and do things they wouldn't normally do, and the only thing we can do is to tactfully tell anyone we see acting offensively what they are doing wrong as regards Thai sensitivities. Unfortunately some people have the attitude that 'I'm paying enough money, I can do what I want' but I think they are a minority.
One final issue is, of course, that as long as the money is rolling in and being distributed amongst those most affected by the farang invasion, then most likely nothing will happen; the problem is if the disgruntled folk are not getting anything from it - that can lead to trouble, and I think we have seen a few isolated examples of that already, but hopefully they will remain as isolated incidents.

[sargeant]

I agree WL it isnt just amongst the tin shack people though,i also hear it sometimes on my soi from palace guards and policemen. I am also fully aware that if i hear it from one Thai it is being repeated by many.
You are correct that the weekend bangkokians frustrate them and of course you are also correct saying the farangs are more obvious and get the focus.
What that says to me is we the farangs must therefore be extra careful (in our own interests) and think more about Thai sensitivities.
I havent written this as a rant i am just hoping that people will be more carefull about HOW they speak HOW they act and consider our lovely hosts with more respect and accept that we are guests here.
I also agree that it is a minority (although i would bet if we were putting numbers to a minority we would differ) that dont think the same as you and me but that minority is very vocal and very visual.
I would like people to ask themselves a simple question : IF I WERE THAI how would i feel if i say this or do that"
To use one word integrate dont dictate or dominate.

[richard]

Sarge

Integrated sums it up

All the Thais I know know me and know that I respect them and their views and they accept me as a guest of their beautiful country and that I have no wishes to see it totally westernised

Be humble and polite and obey their customs and you will have few problems

Our problems are based on the picture painted by the minority pig-headed, arrogant few that exist.

[buksida]

Some good points above there Sarge and WL.

Integration is the key and in my experience the only way to do this is to understand the language fluently on a conversational level - you'll be amazed at what people want to tell you and how interested they are in your opinion as a farang.

[lomuamart]

Sarge

Integrated sums it up

All the Thais I know know me and know that I respect them and their views and they accept me as a guest of their beautiful country and that I have no wishes to see it totally westernised

Be humble and polite and obey their customs and you will have few problems

Our problems are based on the picture painted by the minority pig-headed, arrogant few that exist.

Good post. I've been here a good few years. Have visited and stayed with Thais is "shot-down" shacks both here and especially up-country. I've never had a problem. The only thing that ever grates on me is when I'm viewed as a beer, cigarette and food machine for those who are nothing to do with me - either family, or friends of them. I'll admit I have got off my seat to people like that in the past, but they've paid me no respect, so som nom na. My actions have always been applauded by the Thais that are close to me.
So, what I'm getting at is that it's a two way street. If I really felt that my presence here wasn't appreciated and that, in any way I was big-headed and demanding about my stay here, I'd just move on, because it wouldn't be true. The Thais doff their caps too much to those they feel are superior. I never do, but I also try not to look down on people either.
A Thai person coming to the UK (ie my wife as she's the only one I've known) was always treated with respect and fortunately it only took her a week or so to start questioning "my world". Good, it showed interest from her, not disrespect towards it.
She never expected anything, as I dont here. If there had been idiots in the UK who got upset about her questioning things, then they would have been no friend of mine. Same goes for here.
As I've said in another thread, yes we're guests, but I'm also a human being and I've always tried to look further than borders - even if some can't.

[richard]

thanks Lomu

Took my good lady across to the UK some couple of years ago
had a night out in Cardiff on a Saturday night and even the drunks were appreciative of her presence. She initially had a problem with our culture but after a few questions was rewarded with true British respect.

Shoulder high, as she's a slim thing, they rang the bell for us

Intergration, humble and polite ---- key words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sargeant]

Buksi,WL.richard and i hope my self are really the converted i am sure Lomu from his posts is also there as well
i am hoping that the unconverted are reading our views and having maybe a rethink or at the least are bothering to think if for no other reason than it is in their self interest.
As WL says there have been incidents it is those coupled with the things i am hearing which prompted me to start this thread and my thread on low cost housing for Thais, it does genuinely worry me not for the farangs (I couldnt care less they have the money to go anywhere) but for what it will do to change the lovely Thai people and their culture.
I have tried to think of one example that covers what i am trying to say
and the best i can come up with is (not a very good one but close ish)
I think some will remember a guy wearing a KILT calf length filthy bovver boots NO LACES pink and green hair and more iron mongery peircing his shirtless skinny body than you could find in a hardware store can of beer in one hand prancing around town (the thais still talk about it even now)
They then hear or read it on the net Farangs saying Thais are uneducated or at best their education levels are poor
Is it any wonder they compare the 2 and get the hump IMHO i agree with them
The problem is it means that those of us that live here must therefore give even more respect to our hosts to i dont know restore the balance might be a way to put it. As Richard says stop trying to westernise this lovely country and its people.
Please unconverted stop and think you are strangleing the golden goose.

[sargeant]

Sorry buksi you are included in the converted just my alzheimers at work

[buksida]

Sarge, I think regardless of what any of us say in public or on forums the country will change by itself, we are just not that important in the big scheme of things.

Yes there will always be all things Thai but as the countries of the world develop they sadly look over to the big old US of A for guidance. The oldies will grumble about the changes, the youth will embrace them ... its a brave new world.

I think your point to this thread, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that we should all be a little more respectful when in someone else's house (or country in this case).

However as lomu says, how long do you have to live in the house before it starts to respect you?

[richard]

Well said all and sundry

I was very fortunate to have a friend here who has been here 20 years. He 'wised' me up pretty quickly

There also seems to be a perception that if you a tourist farang then anything goes. If you are a resident then you are expected to conform to Thai culture

Sounds good to me

Guess I'm lucky though as I get re-educated in the north east every now and again!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PeteC]

I think we may need to break down what pisses off the Thai's into two catagories:

1) Rudeness and behaviour unbecoming from tourists who simply don't know, don't care and have never taken the time to read the "Culture Shock" book before arrival.

2) Quick to the trigger criticism from old hand expats like me and many others here.

It is really a demon I have fought with for 37 years. The more we know about Thailand, the more we see how practical efficiencies and sometimes basic common sense are simply not implemented. One could ask 'whose common sense...Westeners or Thai's..?" I personally think that a statement like that is a cop out. It makes no difference "whose" if the logic behind it is sound and the result would be an improvement to society, regardless of location.

There is nothing wrong with expressing thoughs like these in a proper way, however I often find myself boiling like a mad tea kettle over small things simply because of frustration and seeing the same things over and over again done wrong.

I've come to the conclusion that corruption has a great deal to do with this. I could sit here and write paragraphs about almost every facet of Thai life where you see corruption. We've talked about several on here so I won't repeat. We as farangs get very upset and frustrated by this, but Thai's have never known any other way of life. Us getting upset many times makes the Thai's laugh, but probably deep inside them it builds the 'grain of sand' in the hour glass Sarge was talking about. They may be as frustrated as we are but have simply given up trying to change things, or indeed gain or have gained financially from the 'system'.

When I get hit by my daily lightening bolt of insane anger, I now simply take many deep breaths, retreat to the sanctum of my porch, pop a beer and contemplate life. The contemplation never changes my mind about the craziness I just witnessed, it just avoids me taking things out on the Thai's in too harsh of a manner.

If any long term foreign resident of Thailand tells you he/she has found real happiness, they are lying unless they have totally turned off their intelect, or never had one. Pete

[lomuamart]

It's a difficult subject and well brought up.
As an aside and following on from some other posts, I'll never forget being advised by friends who'd been here for a lot longer than me when I first arrived that, in general, if you made it through 3 years here, you were over halfway there - wherever there is. I reckon they meant that you'd already assimilated yourself into the culture a good way.
Any of us I'm sure, will speak a bit of Thai, at least, and certainly enough to be polite. We'll never speak out on taboo subjects, because we know what they are. However, what may be thought or spoken in private dosn't necessarily mirror the image that is given outside of the home or on this board.
As Buksida said, how long to I have to be here before my views are listened to, if not necessarily agreed with. I've got a voice and will use it. If I'm censored in doing so - at a social level - I see no point in being here.
I wouldn't expect a foreigner to the the UK to keep quiet about my country. I'm genuinely interested in their take on it.
Same, same for me here. Hope that make sense.
And it does relate back to sarge's OP about asking questions, not demanding.

[sargeant]

Buksi it is so true what you say and i am aware that change is inevitable but overfast relentless change always causes tensions as it does in this instance plus the failure of some to integrate also exacerbates it
I have said it before and will say it again and again the thais must be comfortable with the changes for it to remain healthy for both thai and farang.The point i am trying to make with both threads is that they are starting to feel uncomfortable with it and what we can do to slow that down.
As long as they feel the changes are coming from them they seem to be quite happy (plus as WL said as long as the money is trickling all the way down which in the tin shacks is debatable)but when they feel powerless or that change is being dictated to them the kettle starts to boil
It is IMHO a simple and sensible thing to show more respect to our hosts and again IMHO they deserve it.
In answer to your and lomus question how long in a house i would say just as long as it takes for you to deserve that respect.However we are not talking about individuals and whether we are respected individuals in our own familys/communitys, to everyone else out there we are lumped into a generalisation wrong true but a hard fact of life

Richard i agree they are very able to discern tourist from people living here they still lump us all together when offended though

[Huahinian]

Some good points above there Sarge and WL.

Integration is the key and in my experience the only way to do this is to understand the language fluently on a conversational level - you'll be amazed at what people want to tell you and how interested they are in your opinion as a farang.

I agree 100%! Speaking, or at least attempting to speak, the language of our hosts indicates willingness to integrate. Thais living in the UK don't expect UK citizens to speak Thai so why should we farangs living here expect Thais to speak English? Many do but often they lack the vocabulary to express themselves fully which creates a barrier.

Respect is something that one EARNS. Using the Thai language helps to earn respect.