BURMA CYCLONE

[margaretcarnes]

Yes Randy - they have 3 days of elections going on, which of course take priority over everything else. Its just been announced on Beeb 24 that the US has permission to land one flight of aid supplies on Monday. Well I'm afraid thats like p.....ing in the wind now. Outbreaks of disease seem set to take out many thousands more. But we musn't upset China must we?

[huahinsimon]

It would surprise me if UN flights would enter Burmese airspace without permission of the Burmese authorities. Correct me if I am mistaken, but so far as I know, this has never happened with a General Assembly resolution recommended by the security Council. Such a resolution would most likely not be possible in this case.

Individual sovereign states which are member of the United Nations could indeed act unilaterally, however. The most likely to take such an action would, of course, be the United States. To do this, the relief flights would need to be protected from possible hostile response from the Junta and in Southeast Asia the only nation with military assets to do this is the United States.

Thanks, FBKK, for your well written, researched and thought out opinions. As a corollary to the karma aspect of disasters, and the different way Asian mind 'may' view the event, I will offer a perspective given by a "guru" who wrote a book called Play of Consciousness and espoused a type of meditation called Kashmir Shavism. It basically states that since, in this opinion, all creation evolved out of the "One" or "Self" that therefore all material manifestations are in essence "God himself." but in limited material form. Therefore what we see is just God playing with himself. Therefore no one does anything to anyone, it is God putting on a play. (a super Shakespeare) "life is a tale told by an idiot, (??) full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." What we see as suffering is in REALITY not suffering for God cannot suffer, but in the limited here and now it is.

Whether these people "deserve it" based on some karmic debt, I find impossible to believe and I take little comfort in the absolute REALITY proposition that nothing is really happening here. While it does make philosophical sense in a detached objective way, I find it hard to live life based on it. But I do find it some what comforting that in this perspective, there is no heaven or hell, no pleasure or suffering, and all things, being in essence God, eventually (or not?) shed their limited manifestations and reunite with the "One." (perhaps that is "heaven")

As actors in the play, we all play our parts to the best of our ability, Or we don't. We "should" act AS IF things matter, and do our best to make a contribution to the perfection of existence (whatever that means) but held in our personal consciousness (if you believe this explanation of existence) is the knowledge that no ONE is suffering, nothing is happening and all is perfect, as this is just a limited inconsequential play sanctioned by the big ONE for his (excuse the masculine convention if it upsets you ) own enjoyment.

the above relates to another way in which Asians/and others, "may" relate to the Burma disaster.

but specifically to topic, this event and the absolute INHUMANE response of that military government, once again demonstrates the weakness of the UNITED NATIONS as a policing body. Add the Darfur tragedy, the Pol Pot genocide in Cambodia, the Uganda Rwanda thing, North Korea, etc and it is quite obvious that as human beings we have not UNITED to any meaningful degree and have not the political will to take on the devil.

I do believe, as suggested, the US could take on and take out the Junta govt in short order, but just maybe China would send in troops to prevent that interference in China's sphere of influence and off we go into a really big mess. Maybe a war like the Korean War when the Chinese came in to rescue the Korean communist forces from the United Nations forces in 1950's..... hey how about that, there was a UN force then (90% or more American?) It ended up a stalemate at the 38 parallel giving us N and S Korea of today. I think that was the last large UN movement to do any thing militarily.

It will be very instructive as to where we are as a species to see if the world stands by and watches hundreds of thousands of people die for failure to take on a rouge government.

HHS

[margaretcarnes]

Nice one HHSimon. What clout DOES the UN have these days? And how much is it costing participating countries to fund it? Seems to me to be a lot of hot air and little action.

[lindosfan1]

HHS good post one reason for the lack of aid to any of these countries can be put into one word. OIL, if a country wants aid or needs aid it will be given but none of the countries you mentioned have requested aid not one country has taken upon itself to force aid, but an Arab state with oil the US and UK go in with guns blazing.

[nevets]

Burma has a wealth of oil and gas

[huahinsimon]

HHS good post one reason for the lack of aid to any of these countries can be put into one word. OIL, if a country wants aid or needs aid it will be given but none of the countries you mentioned have requested aid not one country has taken upon itself to force aid, but an Arab state with oil the US and UK go in with guns blazing.

Lindos (want to know if reference is to the acropolis at Lindos on Rhodos)

rather confusing post here. "one reason for the lack of aid.. is OIL'. thought there are heaps of aid ready to go into Burma with only the words "Please send in." required, NOT You got OIL.

"none of the countries...have requested aid."
Lindos: What is a "country?" Is it the government? or the people? I think we can see from the faces in the pictures that have gotten out of Burma that the "people of the country" want aid. What doesnt want aid is the military govt which fears (and correctly so I think) that if aid on a large scale does go in, this foreign invasion of aid will be the spring board for the over throw of the regime.
Interesting that the military govt took less than 24 hours of mobilize the army against the protesting monks but does nothing to help the people.

I remember a quote attributed to Stalin in regard to pogroms and gulags, which helps me to understand the mind set of these kind of monsters. "One death is a tragedy but a million.....merely a statistic."

HHS

[richard]

Take your point Simon but surely letting in medical aid and specialist workers on limited visas would not harm things. They could be shipped out after a month and the country would then be back to norm.

Is that too logical?

The oil thing is never going to be a threat. Any move in that direction by the US or UN would be thwarted by China and India

[sandman67]

Please don't be blaming the UN for this mess....this is down to the vested interests of a few global pariahs.....

As Frank, who seems by his posts to know a lot more about the mechanisms of the UN than I, will probably confirm the major weaknesses in the UN machine are the Security Council membership and the powers of veto awarded to certain members. In particular China, Russia, and the USA, who appear to abuse this veto power most.

Funnily enough all three are also the biggest critics of the UN system....and the ones with the biggest unpaid membership fees (or were last time I read about this....or have they paid up yet?)

Remove the now devalued and outdated Security Council system, drop the veto, collect the back rent..... and then things might start working better.

Before the UN could work fully the human race would need to evolve more and get its heads used to hierarchies of government, where national sovereignty comes second to that of a "world government" who, in times like this, would assume control and draw on available resources without recall to sovereign states. Decisions would have to me made on a "general good" basis as opposed to the present situation where national interest comes first.

Pipe smoke rings and blue sky dreams......

[frankbangkok]

Sandman67 you are certainly correct in stating that the UN Security Council, the General Assembly, and its member states constitute the UN's major weakness. However, there are, in actual practice, two UNs. The first is the one you describe and everyone knows and sees in the news on a regular basis. This is the UN represented by the General Assembly which is made up of representatives (Ambassadors) of the member states. They are political and devisive in nature and represent, not the UN, but their own country. They are paid by their own country and they no more work for the UN than U.S. Ambassador to Thailand Eric G. John works for the Royal Thai Government, or U.S. Chargé d'Affaires in Rangoon Shari Villarosa, works for the Chairman of the State Peace and Development Council Senior General Than Shwe. These ambassadors and their staffs represent their own governments, or factions within their governments, and they carry passports of their own countries. They meet and pontificate in the UN Secretariat Building, but that is the extent of their UN affiliation and allegience.

The other UN, the real one as outlined in the Charter of the United Nations, is an international organization, based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all peace-loving states, and open to membership by all such states, large and small, for the maintenance of international peace and security and which seeks to assist and protect the downtrodden where ever they may be. This UN is the one represented by the dedicated UN staff members of the various specialized organizations spelled out in the UN Charter. These thousands of dedicated professionals are the hard working core of the headquarters and field staffs of the various agencies:

United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)
United Nations Procurement Division (UNPD)
United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF)
World Food Programme (WFP)
Food and Agriculture Organization(FAO)
United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR)
Inter-Agency Procurement Services Office (IAPSO)
United Nations Office for Project Services (UNOPS)
Pan American Health Organization (PAHO)
World Health Organization (WHO)
United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA)
United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization (UNESCO)
International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA)
International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO)
International Labour Organization (ILO)
World Meteorological Organization (WMO)
World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO)

All of these hard working men and women carry United Nations passports and swear allegiance to the United Nations over and above their oath to their own country. They often put their lives on the line in the performance of their sacred duries. This is the real UN that was intended by the UN founders, and the "other" UN represented by the General Assembly is the contentious and notorious "Nest of Spies" that has given the real UN staff a black eye.

[STEVE G]

There seems to be no progress being made:

Burmese junta seizes UN food aidhttp://bangkokpost.com/News/10May2008_news00.php

[redzonerocker]

taken from wikipedia;

The United Nations (UN) is an international organization whose stated aims are to facilitate cooperation in international law, international security, economic development, social progress and human rights issues. The UN was founded in 1945 to replace the League of Nations, to stop wars between nations and to provide a platform for dialogue.
There are now 192 member states, including almost every recognized independent state.

when you take a look the wars, the conflicts, the poverty & the human rights abuses that are currently (& the past 50 years or so!!) in evidence around the world, they aren't really doing a very good job, are they?
to me, they seem to be the equivalent of the uk pcso's.
they look good but have little or no powers of enforcement

[frankbangkok]

If the ruling junta in Burma fails to release the UN aid shipment serious consequences will follow. The UN staff (especially UNDP) provides an enormous number of services to Burma's people and they will not continue at the same pace if Un rules are so blatently ignored by the junta.

UNDP works in burma under a mandate from its governing body which focuses UNDP activities at programmes with grassroots level impact in the areas of basic health, training and education, HIV/AIDS, the environment and food security. In response to this mandate, which was first laid down in a Governing Council decision in June 1993 and reaffirmed by subsequent Executive Board decisions, UNDP is delivering its assistance through a programme known as the Human Development Initiative, or HDI.
The HDI is a set of projects which is currently providing assistance to poor rural communities in 23 townships in 6 different regions of the country in the thematic sectors outlined int the Governing Council/ Executive Board decisions. The HDI focuses on helping poor communities to meet their basic social and food security needs, on promoting participation by all segments of the community in collective decision-making, and on building community capacities to plan and implement their own self-help activities.
Through its activities and processes, HDI activities focus on the following four UNDP Practice Areas (UNDP focuses globally on 6 Practice Areas, the other two being Crisis Prevention and Recovery, and Information and Communications Technology).

Poverty reduction
Governance at the local level
The environment
HIV/AIDS

[redzonerocker]

problem is frank, who will suffer from these 'serious consequences' ?

certainly not the junta
as is usually the case, the poor & needy will suffer further, the people the UN are supposed to be helping

it's quite clear that the junta care very little about the welfare of the victims of the cyclone & indeed the citizens of burma as a whole

[frankbangkok]

You are right, Red Zone. However, it will be done much more subtly than that. The same aid will flow but the operational partners will be changed. The UN officers on the ground know who is behind each operational partner and the ones being run behind the scenes by officials who have been responsible for confiscating UN aid supplies will find their contract not renewed next time.

[Spitfire]

Judging by the BBC News report yesterday that 150,000 have died and there are others missing, I have only one question,

Why didn't you warn anyone?

Maybe they just sat in their ivory towers and thought it would just miss.

If anywhere needed 'regime change', Burma and Zimbabwe are at the top of the list.