Hundreds of foreigners/teachers arrested in nationwide operation X-Ray Outlaw Foreigner

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Re: Hundreds of foreigners/teachers arrested in nationwide operation X-Ray Outlaw Foreigner

Post by Hahuahin » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:35 pm

dtaai-maai wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:53 am
So if I'm a novelist writing a book, I'm breaking the law? How wonderful it must be to see things so clearly in black and white.
Friend of mine from the US, rented 25m2 room here for 4 years. Wrote two books in that period. They still sell well on amazon. :D

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Re: Hundreds of foreigners/teachers arrested in nationwide operation X-Ray Outlaw Foreigner

Post by STEVE G » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:13 pm

The international company that I work for sends people all over the world to work on tourist visas, it's common practice. They would rather rotate people every couple of weeks than try and get a work permit, if you need someone in Bangkok tomorrow, you just send them, you don't spend a year setting up a local company to sponsor a work permit.

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Re: Hundreds of foreigners/teachers arrested in nationwide operation X-Ray Outlaw Foreigner

Post by dtaai-maai » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:22 pm

StevePIraq wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:28 pm
The people I referred to are in Hua Hin and Pattaya, predominantly renting/selling properties, car rental, software development, and one author.

If you work in Thailand without a work permit you are breaking the law and should face the consequences. I don't know your nationality but i am sure you would not want people working illegally in your own country.
Laphanpon made the valid point about illegal workers taking a job from a local. That should be, and usually is, one of the main criteria, and is why most countries, including Thailand, have a list of proscribed occupations.

You still didn't really address the main crux of my post:
dtaai-maai wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:07 am
Could you expand on this? Who is paying them, and in which country? If you write articles for a European, American, etc. magazine, and get paid for it, are you a criminal who should be locked up and deported? If you are a tax expert, a translator or a consultant in a number of other fields working for people outside of Thailand, paying you in a foreign currency into a bank outside of Thailand, are you a criminal who should be locked up and deported?
How are any of the people I refer to, and (in particular) the author you mention, a threat to the Thai job market?
StevePIraq wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:28 pm
The people I referred to are in Hua Hin and Pattaya, predominantly renting/selling properties, car rental, software development, and one author.

If you work in Thailand without a work permit you are breaking the law and should face the consequences. I don't know your nationality but i am sure you would not want people working illegally in your own country.
I'm British, and have been back here for 18 months after 14 mostly happy years in Thailand. Incidentally, for the first 20 years of my working life I was an immigration officer, and for 5 of those years I worked in enforcement tracking down illegal entrants and deportees in London. I was pretty good at it, but it was never a vocation and certainly never a crusade. I very soon learned (unlike some of my colleagues) that there is no such thing as black and white (in the figurative sense, of course...), that the Home Office had an unhappy knack of taking a hard stance on the wrong cases, and that there should always be an element of discretion and common sense.

I could go on, but I got bored and irritated by this subject a very long time ago. I very rarely mention this former occupation in conversation, particularly in the pub, as people tend to assume that I hold the same bigoted views as many of them; not all, by any means, but I can't deny that I'm increasingly concerned by the growth of nationalism, intolerance and fanaticism (of all kinds) that is obvious everywhere these days. Travel is said to broaden the mind, but in many cases that is blatantly untrue.

(Apologies for going off on a minor rant - now you know why I tend to avoid the subject - life's way too short!)
Cry ‘God for Harry, England, and St George!’

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Re: Hundreds of foreigners/teachers arrested in nationwide operation X-Ray Outlaw Foreigner

Post by STEVE G » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:42 pm

Incidentally, I wonder how many Brits will be working in Europe on tourist visas post-Brexit if no deal is made, I suspect it will be a lot, certainly in the hundreds of thousands and I'll probably be one of them!

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Re: Hundreds of foreigners/teachers arrested in nationwide operation X-Ray Outlaw Foreigner

Post by HHTel » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:06 pm

StevePIraq wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:35 pm
there is nothing illegal with borrowing money for your visa, the requirement is you have the funds in your bank account, there is no statement on where the money comes from
Money in the bank for 3 months. That's not how 'show money' works unfortunately.

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Re: Hundreds of foreigners/teachers arrested in nationwide operation X-Ray Outlaw Foreigner

Post by oakdale160 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:53 am

reminds me--during the Vietnam war, many Canadians worked in the us without permission and were paid in $can into Canadian banks. if you got a green card you were draft-eligible even tho you were not a citizen. Similarly, in China many foreigners stay below the radar by being paid in HK$. Its where you are paid that defines you.

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Re: Hundreds of foreigners/teachers arrested in nationwide operation X-Ray Outlaw Foreigner

Post by laphanphon » Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:02 pm

oakdale160 wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:53 am
Its where you are paid that defines you.
That's one interpretation, but think I disagree. Though don't care enough to research how it applies to Thai law.

I'm sure if you asked an IMM officer, they'd say, you can't work 'in' Thailand, without a permit.
"In" being your physical state, not where your income is deposited. :cheers:
Seriously, if not taking a job from a local, don't think anyone would notice or care. :cheers:
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Re: Hundreds of foreigners/teachers arrested in nationwide operation X-Ray Outlaw Foreigner

Post by STEVE G » Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:32 pm

If you read the relevant Thai law, it allows no kind of work whatsoever, either paid or not. Someone on holiday who answers a business email would be breaking the law, or a retiree mowing his lawn. Basically, laws like this need redrafting to make them fit for the modern world.

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Re: Hundreds of foreigners/teachers arrested in nationwide operation X-Ray Outlaw Foreigner

Post by hhinner » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:03 pm

^^ I believe the labour law was amended somewhat a couple of months ago, and these examples no longer apply, even literally.

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Re: Hundreds of foreigners/teachers arrested in nationwide operation X-Ray Outlaw Foreigner

Post by STEVE G » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:14 pm

OK, I'll see if I can find it later.

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Re: Hundreds of foreigners/teachers arrested in nationwide operation X-Ray Outlaw Foreigner

Post by hhinner » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:46 pm

Could start here: https://duensingkippen.com/thailandbusi ... log/?p=266.

Among it all it seems the definition of work has changed. In the following Decree No. 1 refers to the changes in 2017, while Decree No. 2 refers to the one this year.
On 27 March 2018 the Emergency Decree on Non-Thais’ Working Management (No.2) (2018) (“Decree No. 2”) was issued. Decree No. 2 amended Decree No. 1.

Interestingly, the definition of “working” under the Decree No. 1 remained as broad as in the Act and was defined as “the use of physical strength or knowledge for engaging in an occupation or a job with or without an intention to obtain wages or any other benefit”. Decree No. 2 now redefines “work” as “an engagement of any profession, with or without employer, but excluding business operation of a licensee under the law governing foreigners’ business operation.”

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Re: Hundreds of foreigners/teachers arrested in nationwide operation X-Ray Outlaw Foreigner

Post by STEVE G » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:04 pm

Yes, it seems that some changes have been made recently although I notice that the Thai Ministry of Labour website doesn't reflect that so maybe someone should tell them!

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Re: Hundreds of foreigners/teachers arrested in nationwide operation X-Ray Outlaw Foreigner

Post by buksida » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:34 pm

StevePIraq wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:35 pm
there is nothing illegal with borrowing money for your visa, the requirement is you have the funds in your bank account, there is no statement on where the money comes from
Really? Borrowing money from an 'agent' or 'officer' on the day and getting it rubber stamped for your visa extension at a princely sum of 20,000 baht before giving it back is legal? I think not.

Don't see any difference to doing this than bending the loose work permit rules.

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Re: Hundreds of foreigners/teachers arrested in nationwide operation X-Ray Outlaw Foreigner

Post by HHTel » Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:41 pm

I agree that borrowing money is not illegal. However you would have to borrow it for a min of 3 months. In the case of 'show money', no actual money is used. An electronic deposit is made at the bank, a statement and letter produced then electronically withdrawn. This of course has to have the bank employee on board. The documentation is then accepted by immigration, also 'in on the deal'. Of course that's illegal on all levels.

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