Leaving a bar

[advocate]

I agree the man should pay if he wants holiday companionship.
I'm not so sure he should pay if it is to be a permanent arrangement.
But as noted above, there is no way to predict how long the relationship will last.

[usual suspect]

Littlebird..your Thread has sparked some mixed reactions here..I hope some of them provide you with an answer..?
(I myself have enjoyed the replies here.. :-) )

[Super Joe]

I agree the man should pay if he wants holiday companionship.

But as noted above, there is no way to predict how long the relationship will last.

These could well be key issues around why there is an apparent 'need' for this 'fee'. It may be being applied by bar owners more from a need of a deterrent, rather than any desire to be applying it. I'm sure we can all think of a few examples of how a savvy BG can exploit certain grey areas and manipulate the situation. So assuming for the sake of discussion the notion that no charge should be applied, and the girl should be allowed back if the relationship fails, then taking it to an extreme... 4 of us fly over for our annual 6 week trip over Christmas and head straight to see our 'tilacs' in 'NoGirl Bar'. So-called to hopefully demonstrate my point rather than my preference

There was definately a 'perceived' sense of love being in the air, maybe it's genuine, maybe the girl is over-hyping it all, maybe she's scheming. But anyway she's made her case to the boss, the farang's getting her a visa... and she's going on a Bosman. In walk the 4 lads, have a drink, and walk out with the bar's 4 best earners. Maybe their only earners, maybe 4 doable birds in the one bar is also taking things to extremes, but you know what I mean. The bar owner's a bit powerless to stop it really, how can he start favouring some girls requests over others.

If it's clearly just a holiday trip, then what if they're staying 12 weeks instead of 6, what if they visit 3 times a year, what if she's pregnant, they've filled in the visa forms in the bar etc etc. Who wants to get involved in bar politics or have unhappy staff etc. Now all of a sudden the bar's hope of a good high season to pay the bills has gone up in smoke. The lads & girls promised to be in every night, but the next the bar saw of them was the girls walking in 6 weeks later when they left without them... after doing a deal with the girls over the bar fines

Turned out to be a loan spell rather than a free transfer. Would any of us loan out our top scorers, free of charge, when they're desperately needed!? This 'fee' thing seems the perfect solution, protects your business, diplomatically sorts the staff issue out, even looks like you're doing them a favour with their cut. And at the end of the day the only people to get hump about it is the farangs, and technically we don't count. Plus we caused the problem in the first place

Depending which way you look at it you could argue it's just a sound business move that I'd have thought most would make under similar circumstances. We all know in Hua Hin that 2 or 3 good girls jumping around outside can make a dead bar busy, and vice versa.


SJ

[advocate]

Good post Super Joe and I don't necessarily disagree with your position.

But the catch 22 here is that we are talking about unwritten rules for an illegal custom.

Technically speaking, they are not property and cannot be sold.
The girls are not under contract and have the freewill to leave whenever they want, for whatever reason. There is no contract to enforce, no breach of contract if they leave, and since prostitution and human trafficking are illegal, there is no legal means to enforce compliance.

[advocate]

Some posters here indicate that the bar will lose money if the best girls leave. The bars with the hottest girls are very often the most successful. This is the case with all bars, no matter where they are in the world.

This is just the way it is in a competitive market anywhere worldwide. Here, for some reason the owners expect to be compensated for future lost revenue, based on a custom they are attempting to impose. Doesn't happen in any western country, and there are many successful bar owners around the world who have never even heard of a bar fine. Hot girls attract customers and you make your money from alcohol sales.

I doubt the Hilton Disco charges bar fines and there are many feelancers working out of there.

[margaretcarnes]

I don't think it's a case of 'attemting to impose' a custom Advocate. Perhaps more a custom and practice thing which certainly bar girls are all aware of and all accept without question.
A good mamasan is usually older - therefore respected by the girls. That's just the way it is. And in fact even if there is a farang owner who has tried to eliminate the practice on moral grounds - the staff would still expect a bar fine system and could probably often get away with it without the farangs' knowledge. So it may as well all be out in the open and keep the staff happy.
How it originated though I don't know - maybe someone can shed some light? I would guess something to do with Pattayas' heyday when GI's had money to throw around?

[advocate]

I would argue that the bar girls accept this as they have no choice, but it is not them paying, and so therefore not really up to them if the falang decides not to pay. So I don't see why the girl should be penalized by not allowing her to return to the bar if she wants to.

I would also say that custom has more to do with ancient tradition, and I don't think the recent invention of falang orientated beer bars qaulifies as such. You are more correct characterizing the fine as a practice by some bar owners.

As I have said before, I understand the practice when it comes to short term or holiday rentals, but have my doubts as to whether it should be imposed if the girl is quitting.

I should say that I have never been a bar owner and my wife has never worked bar, so I may not be the best judge as I have never been directly involved in the practice.

I just find this to be an interesting debate as I have friends involved.

[STEVE G]

This is just the way it is in a competitive market anywhere worldwide. Here, for some reason the owners expect to be compensated for future lost revenue, based on a custom they are attempting to impose. Doesn't happen in any western country, and there are many successful bar owners around the world who have never even heard of a bar fine. Hot girls attract customers and you make your money from alcohol sales.

Yes, I've personally known of cases here in Europe where certain barmaids have been paid more than other staff in unofficial bonuses due to their ability to attract customers to the establishment. Effectively the owner is paying them to stay rather than fining them if they leave.

[advocate]

Yes, I've personally known of cases here in Europe where certain barmaids have been paid more than other staff in unofficial bonuses due to their ability to attract customers to the establishment. Effectively the owner is paying them to stay rather than fining them if they leave.[/quote]

I have heard of this too, and it's much less demeaning than treating them as a commodity to be bought and sold. It's also legal.

[margaretcarnes]

I still have a problem with this concept of 'buying and selling' and still disagree with the idea that it's a farang invention. Why differentiate between a short time bar fine and a 'leaving the bar' bar fine Advocate? Surely if people see it as a commercial transaction then there's no difference?
And when push comes to shove no bar girl is forced to leave a bar with a farang against her wishes. The only type of pressure which could be argued is that of the girls' family back in the village, and maybe the need to support a child back home when the father wants nothing to do with it.

[STEVIEBALE]

quick 1...if i play pool with son and lady sets the balls up, maybe plays with son a few games....what kind of tip should i leave that would be considered acceptable by the lady?

[advocate]

Margaret, I don't think I have argued that it is a falang invention, only that it is a recent invention by bar owners, and not a custom per se.

There are many types of commercial transactions and not all are the same merely by being commercial. The sale of a commodity is legal, the sale of a human being is not legal, nor is it moral.

Where the girl has an ongoing working relationship where she uses the bar to generate revenue for herself than I can see the logic for the bar fine. If she decides to leave the bar for any reason, then that relationship is over, and I cannot see the logic in charging for a service the bar is no longer providing, and the girl wants no part of. It reeks of indentured servitude.

[margaretcarnes]

Margaret, I don't think I have argued that it is a falang invention, only that it is a recent invention by bar owners, and not a custom per se.

There are many types of commercial transactions and not all are the same merely by being commercial. The sale of a commodity is legal, the sale of a human being is not legal, nor is it moral.

Where the girl has an ongoing working relationship where she uses the bar to generate revenue for herself than I can see the logic for the bar fine. If she decides to leave the bar for any reason, then that relationship is over, and I cannot see the logic in charging for a service the bar is no longer providing, and the girl wants no part of. It reeks of indentured servitude.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree a bit here - always two sides to a story eh? Just a couple more things to ponder though. I can't disagree in principal with the 'sale' of people of course. But as long as there are customers (both farang AND Thai by the way) there will be bar fines. Can this practice be compared with the likes of say doweries? Just a thought.
And bar fining is also used to procure temporary staff from another bar. Again in the west that would be seen as illegal. In the LOS it is common. There are things which go on which many farang simply don't see. That doesn't make them either right or wrong - just different to what we are accustomed to

[advocate]

I happily agree to disagree!

I think bar fines will survive as long as customers continue to pay them, and that's it.

Dowries traditionally go to the bride's parents, not the bar, and are seen as compensation for raising the daughter, not for hiring her to work bar.

Sin sot is not payable for a prostitute/bar girl in traditional Thai society, just as it is not payable for a girl previously married or with children. But of course, the bar girl will tell the falang the opposite.

Out of necessity, any money paid to the bar may reduce any potential dowry by the same amount. Money is a finite resource and not all falangs are rich.

[soidog]

girls quite often go back with tears to mamasan saying 'farang cheap charlie'....If I only had a nickel every time I heard this...I wouldn't' be a cheap charlie anymore.