Golf Rules - Questions and Answers

[London Boy]

You are in-deed correct my old son and I should not have put in the concession.

[hhfarang]

HHFarang,
There are many who would agree with you on this point. (And I play with some of them.) Many play with this "invented rule". The problem is that the two club lengths where the ball is dropped is usually where they would like to have found the ball. This of course gives a significant advantage as the ball would have been deep in the rough or in the trees, etc.

But I have hit many balls straight down the middle of the fairway and no one has been able to find them. Holes? Monkeys running off with balls? I don't know, but with my eyesight it has happened in my foursome (eightsome with caddies) about once a round here!

Maybe all 8 of us have bad eyesight or maybe it would happen to the pros to if they played on similar courses and didn't have an army to find the ball. At any rate, go back and hit the ball from the previous spot again on a crowded course and see what the group behind you says.

[SunandFun]

HHFarang,
What you are saying also occurs on the professional tour too. But through a little investigation, we find that "an outside agency" has taken away the ball. Doesn't matter what that "outside agency" is. You just need good evidence of 1) your ball should be where you hit it 2) there is an "outside agency" in the immediate area. I have seen eagles and hawks pick up and fly away with the ball; dogs run away with the ball; monkeys run away with the ball and kids steal and run away with the ball. (That is why I never buy golf balls from the kids along the fairways) The caddies should have some local knowledge as to what the culprit is and that should be sufficient. Only penalty is your ball is gone. Now estimate where it should be and drop another ball there and play on. If there is a hole in the middle of the fairway or in the area where you hit your ball, and your ball is nowhere to be found and you are "virtually certain" that the ball is lost in the hole, drop a ball within one club length from the nearest point of relief not closer to the hole and play on. No penalty. See, there is good news for you for Christmas!

[Albie Quick]

A true story -

Peter Parkinson used to be the pro at Sherdley Park Golf Club in St Helens near Liverpool. He is in the Guinness Book of Records as having recorded the longest hole in one in the UK. He recorded the hole in one at West Lancashire golf Club whilst playing match play and despite his hole in one he loses the hole to his opponent. (The hole in question is a 400 yard -ish par 4 dogleg right). Interesting but true!

[SunandFun]

Albie, I would be interested to know how he lost the hole after a hole in one. He would have to breach a Rule such as "Carrying 15 clubs in his bag" or some similar infraction where the penalty is "loss of hole in match play." Thanks for your post!

[Albie Quick]

Hi SF
It's quite a simple answer really.

The hole in question is the 7th at West Lancs, which is a dogleg right over the sand dunes. Peter went for the green whilst his opponent took the longer route down the fairway. When they got to the green they found no sign of Peter's ball. After 5minutes of searching he declared the ball lost and gave the hole to his opponent. For whatever reason his opponent 'putted out' and found Peter's ball in the hole.

In a stroke play event, the fact that he declated the ball lost would not have mattered because he would have been deemed to have finished playing the hole as soon as the ball went in the cup, so the 'lost ball' declaration was irrelevant. In match play, however, by 'giving' the hole to his opponent, he made a decision which could not be reversed.

[SunandFun]

Thanks Albie! Yes, RULE 2-4 A Concession may not be declined or withdrawn.

[bonnielass]

Albie

Going back to your first post about belly putters and ball markings, I wonder what you think about modern putters, compared to the conventional blade or mallet styles.
IMHO putters on the market today have actually become putting aids in their own right.
If you consider the "directional lines" built into a lot of putters and also those "2-ball" designs.
Obviously they must be legal, but it makes you wonder, are the rules being bent and by whom?

[SunandFun]

Hi Bonnielass, I hope you don't mind my comments too. I know you had directed your question to Albie, and I look forward to his comments too.

As "creativity" evolves, it requires the R&A to take decisions on allowing these things or not. Although the Rule has not changed (see below part of the Rule) new items are submitted every year for testing and approval. When I was at R&A for Referee School, we actually had to use the Rules to determine if certain clubs complied or not. You would not believe some of the designs we saw there. The funny thing is, the putting average and average score has not changed much in the last many years. As I laugh when my competitors complain that "the caddie" has given them a wrong line, most players can't put the ball consistently on the line they choose. So no matter what "aiming" devises are placed on a club, usually a good or bad stroke determines if the ball goes into the hole or not.

Regarding "Belly Putters" I believe the benefit is that you actually take one hand off of the club to anchor it to the Belly or Chest. This eliminates the "yips" and generally improves putting. I find that on short putts, 3-5 feet, I am as accurate with one hand as I am with two, sometimes better. But these have been around for many years and come and go with trends. Probably the biggest benefit of a long belly putter is in measuring "one or two club-lengths" while taking relief as the putter becomes longer than the driver.

Regarding mallet vs. offset vs. blade, etc. it depends on what type of putting stroke you have or use. Is it straight back and straight through? Or is it inside, to square, to inside, similar to a swing with a club. Some head designs are to match the swing.
Probably the greatest "change" that has taken place in the Rules in the last 10 years is the New Conforming Groove requirement for Pros. This is putting "skill" back to a higher demand.

Part of the Rule:.
CLUBHEAD
a. Plain in Shape the clubhead must be generally plain in shape. All parts must be rigid, structural in nature and functional. the clubhead or its parts must not be designed to resemble any other object. it is not practicable to define plain in shape precisely and comprehensively. However, features that are deemed to be in breach of this requirement and are therefore not permitted include, but are not limited to:
(i) All Clubs
• holes through the face;
• holes through the head (some exceptions may be made for putters and cavity back irons);
• features that are for the purpose of meeting dimensional specifications;
• features that extend into or ahead of the face;
• features that extend significantly above the top line of the head;
• furrows in or runners on the head that extend into the face (some
exceptions may be made for putters); and
• optical or electronic devices.

Happy Golfing! Sun and Fun

[Albie Quick]

I don't like the long putters:
1. I think they've strayed too far from the original design concept of a putter as to be acceptable.

2. They introduce a whole new swing concept into the game - an 'anchorage' point whilst making the swing.

I have the greatest respect for the R&A for the work they do in order to uphold the integrity of the game but I do think that they've got this one wrong.

Cheers, Albie

[PET]

I don't like the long putters:
1. I think they've strayed too far from the original design concept of a putter as to be acceptable.

2. They introduce a whole new swing concept into the game - an 'anchorage' point whilst making the swing.

I have the greatest respect for the R&A for the work they do in order to uphold the integrity of the game but I do think that they've got this one wrong.

Cheers, Albie

Re R & A

Also the rule of having DROP the ball in a bunker - common sense and fairness surely should allow the ball to be placed?

[Albie Quick]

Hi Pet,

I agree with you on that one.

The R&A could change the 'bunker drop' rule tomorrow without the slightest problem. The problem with the issue of the long putter is that it's not so easily rectified. They'd be fighting legal battles for years and I'd be surprised if the R&A has the resources or the inclination to take on the big club manufacturers. The best we can hope for is a decision to make them illegal and a period of time in which to phase them out as they did a few years ago in the case of the oversize drivers.

[PeteC]

Can someone explain this one please. I would have thought there would be no penalty at all, and perhaps even playing the ball from a spot close to where it was seen entering the bunker. I have a feeling someone from the gallery ran out and grabbed it, or it's the fault of the golf course itself for having quick sand bunkers , not the player. Pete

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/golf/17479501

Branden Grace suffers lost ball in bunker at Hassan Trophy
Hassan Trophy leaderboard (par 72)

-7: Damien McGrane (Ire)
-5: Alejandro Canizares (Esp)
-4: Richie Ramsay (Sco), Graeme Storm (Eng), Robert-Jan Derksen (Den), Edoardo Molinari (Ita) Kenneth Ferrie (Eng), Phillip Price (Wal), Jorge Campillo (Esp)

South African Branden Grace's progress in the first round of the Hassan Trophy in Morocco was hampered when he lost his ball in a bunker.

Grace found the greenside sand from his tee shot on the par-three 16th.

But, despite help from his caddy and his playing partners, the ball could not be found and was called lost after five minutes of frantic raking.

Grace, 23, was forced back to the tee, hitting his next shot to four feet, as he recovered to card only a bogey four.

The lost ball was part of an eventful round for the group containing Grace, Matteo Manassero and England's Robert Rock.

Rock, chasing a place in the world's top 50 in order to qualify for the Masters in April, had earlier racked up an 11 at the par-four fourth.

He finished the day on five over, while Grace was three shots better off.

Ireland's Damien McGrane fired eight birdies and an eagle to lead on seven under par, two shots ahead of Alejandro Canizares.

A group of seven other players, including English pair Graeme Storm and Kenneth Ferrie, Welshman Phillip Price and Scot Richie Ramsay, were a shot further back.

[hhfarang]

HHFarang,
What you are saying also occurs on the professional tour too. But through a little investigation, we find that "an outside agency" has taken away the ball. Doesn't matter what that "outside agency" is. You just need good evidence of 1) your ball should be where you hit it 2) there is an "outside agency" in the immediate area. I have seen eagles and hawks pick up and fly away with the ball; dogs run away with the ball; monkeys run away with the ball and kids steal and run away with the ball. (That is why I never buy golf balls from the kids along the fairways) The caddies should have some local knowledge as to what the culprit is and that should be sufficient. Only penalty is your ball is gone. Now estimate where it should be and drop another ball there and play on. If there is a hole in the middle of the fairway or in the area where you hit your ball, and your ball is nowhere to be found and you are "virtually certain" that the ball is lost in the hole, drop a ball within one club length from the nearest point of relief not closer to the hole and play on. No penalty. See, there is good news for you for Christmas!

Pete, I would have thought the answer above to my query about a lost ball in the fairway would apply and there should have been no penalty if everyone was sure the ball went into the bunker.

[PeteC]

I was guessing about a fan stealing the ball. There really is no indication in the article about an "outside agency" in the vicinity. Doesn't seem like a big tournament so perhaps no one around that particular hole. Pete