One night in Bangkok

[buksida]

Found this article about a night out in the red light areas of the Big Mango. Its a bit long but definately worth a read:

"Bangkok - Spending an evening in the tawdry red-light districts of Bangkok with old friends and new ones, some may begin to ponder the decadence and depravity on offer and the people who participate in one of Asia's most renowned sex tourist destinations.

Promised a tour and a night out with the guys, we planned to meet in Patpong, the central red-light district possibly as well known for its fake designer merchandise as its very real sex shows, go-go bars and beer bars, all teeming with girls seemingly eager for male companionship.

Pondering the possible value for this article and other "research" I was doing, I considered for a moment checking out one of the sex shows I had so long avoided since first going to Bangkok years ago. The fleeting experience I had was in essence walking into one such establishment, getting a momentary look at the talent on stage and then fleeing; to me there are just some things you don't want to see being done with fruit."

Full Story: Asian Sex Gazette

[Wanderlust]

Excellent article - it neatly describes how things are in the tourist sex industry without being patronising or condescending to either participants or reader. The writer must have a will of iron (fnarr) or an extremely wonderful wife, or both, though!

[Guess]

Excellent article

Well not for me it wasn't although just like "The Warriors", "Babylon on a t'in Wire" and "Green Street Hooligans" it had to be read. If we do not read about sickness then how can we understand it.

This publicity only promotes the industry. The girls who are employed in this industry are sad individuals who have been left with only one choice in life. If they were educated, then some of them mat be able to get a more rewarding less dangerous job.

These girls were born and raised twenty odd years ago long before the current government was established. I am not the current regime's greatest fan butr I do believe he is heading in the right direction.

I.e. stamp it out completely.

[Wanderlust]

Well not for me it wasn't although just like "The Warriors", "Babylon on a t'in Wire" and "Green Street Hooligans" it had to be read. If we do not read about sickness then how can we understand it.

This publicity only promotes the industry. The girls who are employed in this industry are sad individuals who have been left with only one choice in life. If they were educated, then some of them mat be able to get a more rewarding less dangerous job.

These girls were born and raised twenty odd years ago long before the current government was established. I am not the current regime's greatest fan butr I do believe he is heading in the right direction.

I.e. stamp it out completely.

I was commenting on how well it was written rather than opening a debate on the rights and wrongs of the sex industry. Now you have opened it though, I think there is a tendency to be a bit too moralistic (Victorian even!) regarding this subject, and although I agree that the girls (and boys) who end up working in this way should have more choice about what they do, I believe that some, if not many, would still choose to work in the sex industry, as they do in every country in the world, whether developed nations with a good education system such as the UK, USA and Australia, or developing and under developed nations. The writer even points this out when he questions the girl who is university educated!

Your last point, your id est, is naive in the extreme - if any attempt is made to stamp out prostitution and the sex industry it will only drive it further into the much more dangerous underworld and leave many Isaan (and other) families poorer for it. The industry exists because there is a demand for it - there always has been and always will be, so it is better to accept that fact, whether it is distasteful or not, and try to ensure that it is as safe for those involved as possible. Unless you are going to try and kill the demand this is the only practical way forward, and I don't know how you could kill the demand - there will always be some wanting to pay for sex and others quite happy to provide it. Some might say that all 'genuine' relationships are like this anyway to some extent, in that both parties give and receive something(s).

I also have to take issue with your 'This publicity only promotes the industry.' statement - this accusation has been levelled at virtually every newspaper/journalist/media since time immemorial; using the same logic no wars should be reported as it promotes war. In fact nothing nasty or unpleasant should ever be known about because it will lead to more nastiness and unpleasantness, so don't ever tell your children of the dangers of crossing the road because this is a nasty thing..... Good journalism reports on what is already there and keeps people informed of how it is, not how it should be, and I believe the writer of the piece we were discussing did it well.

I find it interesting that you refer to it as a 'sickness', and it is why I made the Victorian reference earlier, as it is exactly how the upper classes then saw it, whilst employing 5 year old boys to clean their chimneys and operating sweat shops in poor areas (as well as 'exporting' all those 'workers' from Africa earlier). Somewhat hypocritical of them, and I very much doubt that there are many people in the world now who can claim to be without sin, whichever way you want to describe that. There are much more important issues facing Thailand and the world, threatening our existence, than prostitution and the sex industry, and I think even ardent feminists would agree with me on that one! Make it safer, yes, improve the possibilities of education and jobs, yes, but don't judge either the individuals or the society for the existence of this industry.

[buksida]

I agree pretty much with Wanders comments. Prostitution is the oldest trade on the planet, there is no "stamping it out".

What the current government are doing by clamping down on it and closing establishments early is forcing it all out onto the streets. Have you taken a stroll down Sukhumvit at 2am? All this going on outside of safer establishments where the girls once worked is only going to lead to more crime, more drugs, more prostitution and less control over the situation.

The government have got it arse about face in my opinion.

[Guess]

I think there is a tendency to be a bit too moralistic.

I agree that could be true, but people, although many rebel against, are always influenced by their ethnic surroundings.

Your last point, your id est, is naive in the extreme

Absolutely not. Firstly, what seems to have been missed here is that the article was about stage shows in the seedy areas of Bangkok. Although this business is inextricably linked with prositution it is not the only form as I am sure you well know. Sex on stage still exists in many countries in the world in varying degrees. That does not mean that it is needed or necessary. Do not forget that in the vast majority of countries it is illegal. Even in liberal countries like the USA certain states (most I think) have deemed it unacceptable.

if any attempt is made to stamp out prostitution and the sex industry.

Prostitution is a component of the sex industry, they are not two different entities. Prostitution is as old as man and, as stated later by Buksida, it would not be possible or even desirable to stamp it out. The reference that I made is to the topic of the article, i.e. stage shows. My belief still is that this practise should be relegated to the confines of the video media world.

The industry exists because there is a demand for it - there always has been and always will be, so it is better to accept that fact, whether it is distasteful or not, and try to ensure that it is as safe for those involved as possible.

There is a demand for snuff movies, serial killing, perverted and dangerous sexual practices, driving at high speed on public roads, suicide, peodeaphilia, heroine, cocaine, necrophilia and beastiality.

Shall we cater for all those aswell?

There will always be some wanting to pay for sex and others quite happy to provide it. I agree but like urination and defecation, surely it should not be in the public view.

Some might say that all 'genuine' relationships are like this anyway to some extent, in that both parties give and receive something(s).

Maybe somebody has been reading the works of Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche.

I also have to take issue with your 'This publicity only promotes the industry.' statementl.

OK you were right and I was wrong. I was really thinking of Currant Bun (the British tabloid with the largest national circulation) type of over reporting on what sells their tawdry publications.

I just remember that during the height of the NI troubles that a decision was made to stop showing footage of youths throwing petrol bombs and rocks at the police. It virtually stamped out the practice overnight.

[Jockey]

Wanderlust - that wasn't a post - it was a speech!!! (And well said too)

Guess - Your reply was also interesting. Thumbs up too!

Gawd - I didn't think I would get edjimicated on this website!

[Wanderlust]

Firstly, what seems to have been missed here is that the article was about stage shows in the seedy areas of Bangkok. Although this business is inextricably linked with prositution it is not the only form as I am sure you well know.Sex on stage still exists in many countries in the world in varying degrees. That does not mean that it is needed or necessary. Do not forget that in the vast majority of countries it is illegal. Even in liberal countries like the USA certain states (most I think) have deemed it unacceptable.

You are right that the article did focus on sex shows, which are a part of the industry but it seems obvious to me that in Asia particularly these are just the appetiser to the core money making business of prostitution, whereas in other parts of the world the sex shows/lap dancing bars etc are a stand alone venture much of the time, and will actually go out of their way to ensure a connection is not made with prostitution. I don't think the USA is a particularly liberal country when it comes to this in fact; in the main Americans are actually very conservative.

Prostitution is a component of the sex industry, they are not two different entities. Prostitution is as old as man and, as stated later by Buksida, it would not be possible or even desirable to stamp it out. The reference that I made is to the topic of the article, i.e. stage shows. My belief still is that this practise should be relegated to the confines of the video media world.

I am not a fan of sex shows, go-go bars and the like either, but at the same time I don't really regard them as particularly dangerous either. Each to their own for me in this case.

There is a demand for snuff movies, serial killing, perverted and dangerous sexual practices, driving at high speed on public roads, suicide, peodeaphilia, heroine, cocaine, necrophilia and beastiality.

Shall we cater for all those aswell?

Obviously these are extreme examples of things that a small minority like to indulge in, but the major difference between these and the sex shows/ prostitution is that however heavily regulated your list is, they will all still be highly dangerous, whether through death or serious mental and physical harm, whereas the dangers of the sex shows and prostitution are relatively minor (STDs, thieving, punters and girls being ripped off). Interestingly, possession and use of cocaine carries heavy penalties in virtually every country in the world, and yet it does not deter people from taking it, which in a way proves the point that attempting to stamp something out does not work.

I agree but like urination and defecation, surely it should not be in the public view.

I totally agree, and in most cases in Thailand the shows and areas where prostitutes gather are in specific entertainment zones such as Patpong and Soi Cowboy and normally behind closed doors or curtains. In my travels it is only Pattaya which has overstepped that mark, and one of the reasons I am not particularly keen on the place. Hua Hin by comparison is a model of decorum, and yet we still got posts on here complaining about the 'scene' here. To my mind it is similar to most nightclubs in the UK, with girls hanging around waiting to be picked up, and guys drinking their fill of booze, with the main difference being the beauty on display.

I just remember that during the height of the NI troubles that a decision was made to stop showing footage of youths throwing petrol bombs and rocks at the police. It virtually stamped out the practice overnight.

I remember that too, and the quotes about not giving them the oxygen of publicity (regarding the ban on the TV showing Sinn Fein interviews, or something like that), but I never saw or heard any statistics telling how successful it was. They certainly are keen enough to show violence on the streets in other parts of the world (Gaza, former Soviet republics etc). Censorship can be a dangerous road to go down, and I think I would rather have the chance to see everything rather than what others think I should see. Does 'We Report, You Decide' ring any warning bells?

[Guess]

Good stuff. The word synergy comes to mind. Jockey, don't you think you might be edumacated enough already.

Does 'We Report, You Decide' ring any warning bells?

Well, yes it does. I had to rack my brains for hours following hours of rackng my balls and suddenly it hit. It is the slogan of a propaganda media company that can get people elected into power in a democratic environment even if they have recieved less votes.

BTW my corporate slogan is "You report, I Deride".