Firstly, I hope this is the correct part of the forum - apologies if not.
Yesterday Katherine Horton was buried in Llanishen, Cardiff. Now her family will begin the painful process of coming to terms with life without her and I am sure we all offer our sincere condolences.
In Thailand today (Wednesday 18 Jan) the two Thai fishermen convicted of her murder were sentenced to death after an unprecedented, rail-roaded legal process that has left many people here asking if justice (as we have come to know it in the west) could really be served by a trial that could never have taken this form in Katherine's home country.
Pete (AKA prcscct) has stated the following in another thread in the News section of the forum:
"One thing no one has mentioned, why aren't they so quick on the draw when something similar or worse happens to one of their own, by the hands of one of their own? Double standards and a continuation of their obsession with tourist dollars and total disregard for their own?"
In anticipation of the sentencing I have been wondering the same thing.
Add into this scenario the apparently accepted practice of not handing down the ultimate sanction (i.e. the death penalty) in the event of the perpetrators pleading guilty. In this case both defendants pleaded guilty but still received the death penalty - most commentators believing that this was for political and economic expediency.
One theory put forward, again in another thread on this forum, is that part (though not all) of the background to the crime is growing resentment amongst apparently disenfranchised Thai men towards the influx of wealthy foreigners.
So, in a country where the justice system is normally very slow, is the speed and manner of both the conviction and sentencing of these two men (due to the nature of the victim rather than the nature of the crime) going to add to that supposed resentment or are Thai people generally satisfied that the whole thing has been concluded with an appropriate level of punishment?
Ex-pats & Thai readers - any views?
Horton murder death sentences - how do the Thais see it?
I'm trying to remember what the normal sentencing proceedure is in cases such as these.
I think it's possible that the first court hands down a death sentence, but it's reduced to life on appeal, particularly when there has been a confession.
Cases of Westerners being caught smuggling drugs spring to mind. They may initially get the death sentence, but it's always commuted to life.
Could this sentence just be the normal first step in this process? Can anyone help? I'm really not sure if I'm right on that one.
I've never been a supporter of capital punishment and see no reason to change my mind now. Mrs Lomu reckons they should be put to death as a deterrent to others - as long as they've got the right people.
I read somewhere - maybe on the board? - that no-one's been excuted in Thailand since 2003. There are plenty on death row though.
I think it's possible that the first court hands down a death sentence, but it's reduced to life on appeal, particularly when there has been a confession.
Cases of Westerners being caught smuggling drugs spring to mind. They may initially get the death sentence, but it's always commuted to life.
Could this sentence just be the normal first step in this process? Can anyone help? I'm really not sure if I'm right on that one.
I've never been a supporter of capital punishment and see no reason to change my mind now. Mrs Lomu reckons they should be put to death as a deterrent to others - as long as they've got the right people.
I read somewhere - maybe on the board? - that no-one's been excuted in Thailand since 2003. There are plenty on death row though.
Can you describe this a bit more Jaime.Jaime wrote: I think my wife has felt the pendulum swing of opinion against Thailand quite acutely.
Do you consider there is a strained atmosphere which will lead to less tourism in Thailand (from the UK)?
If that's the case, what about the rest of Europe?
Are people in general negative to Thailand as a result of the Horton case?
I intend to live forever - so far so good.
What I meant was that here, for the past two weeks my wife has had to respond to questions like "So what do you think of these murders in Thailand then?" "It's not safe to go there now is it?" etc. This has been inescapable at work, when picking the kids up from school, when meeting my family, when going out with friends etc. You know how Thai people can take things very personally and I think she feels a certain amount of shame over what has happened because there is a lot of negative press about Thailand at the moment, which has snowballed following the murder of Katherine Horton. Everyone knows my wife in the village in which we live and she sticks out like a sore thumb as, apart from some districts of Cardiff and Newport, Wales has a very low immigrant population. I think she feels a bit exposed with bad things being said about her country every day.
There was a huge amount of empathy with Thailand here following the tsunami but now the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction. I can't speak for Europe but I definitely think the family and couples market (i.e. the market the TAT is trying to promote) is damaged in the UK. Single men and frequent visitors will of course continue to come to Thailand.
So in the short term at least my answer to both of Norseman's questions is 'Yes.'
However, the original post was more to do with whether the locals in Thailand felt resentful that things seem to have happened so quickly simply because the victim was a tourist.
There was a huge amount of empathy with Thailand here following the tsunami but now the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction. I can't speak for Europe but I definitely think the family and couples market (i.e. the market the TAT is trying to promote) is damaged in the UK. Single men and frequent visitors will of course continue to come to Thailand.
So in the short term at least my answer to both of Norseman's questions is 'Yes.'
However, the original post was more to do with whether the locals in Thailand felt resentful that things seem to have happened so quickly simply because the victim was a tourist.
Forgive me Jamie if I'm too outspoken but it's Friday night here and a significant amount of suds have already gone under the belt. If you live in a small village, I feel sorry for your wife as yes, she is going to be picked to death simply because she is from a place that's "in the news" at the moment. If it's a large town, small city, tell her to tell those with nothing better to do but "pry" to bugger off. You've got a hard row to hoe with this one. Who do you support and protect?..your wife or the village folks you've known since birth? I don't think any of this has to do with the Horton matter, just an opportunity for local folks to pick on the outsider?..at least my initial take from your recent post. Been there, done that and please pray your wife doesn't wake up one morning having made a "decision" about where she now lives. If it's a negative decision, God and man will not be able to change her mind. I know, way off the mark I think in regards to the meaning of your post, but maybe perhaps a more important subject related to all of this? As far as local Thai's feeling resentful about things?...I really don't think they give a damn as long as it didn't happen to them. Pete
Thank you Jaime for your honest and tremendously good answer.
I hope you are able to protect your innocent wife from mud-slinging by people who don't know better because they are angry.
Just now I wish my written english was far better than I can express, but I must say I really sympathize with your wife and all the Thai-people who must face this negative pressure in reality.
I hope you are able to protect your innocent wife from mud-slinging by people who don't know better because they are angry.
Just now I wish my written english was far better than I can express, but I must say I really sympathize with your wife and all the Thai-people who must face this negative pressure in reality.
I intend to live forever - so far so good.
Whooah there fellas!
When I wrote that my wife sticks out like a sore thumb I meant physically, not socially!
Jim, maybe you have had an unfortunate personal experience but my own experiences as someone from an immigrant family living in Wales, with a foreign name to boot and with an Asian wife, tell me that your bitter generalisation is way off the mark.
Being part Greek, part Spanish and part Welsh with a Thai wife I think I can safely say that in general people here in the South Wales valleys are very tolerant and welcoming. As an interloper from Cardiff myself, I have been overwhelmed at times with how well my wife has been treated at work and also by my family and friends. She probably has more friends than me in the valleys town we live in ('nuff said).
In my previous post I fell into the trap of imagining only non-whites as 'immigrants.' Of course, although there are few Asian or African immigrants here (relative to the rest of the UK) there have been waves of European immigrants over the last hundred years - my own family included. There is definitely a tradition of tolerance in the South Wales valleys, whose population is an amalgam of those waves of European, including English & Irish, immigrants during the industrial revolution.
Like everywhere else, there are tossers who blindly hate immigrants and my wife has had to encounter a few of those (and I have posted about those incidents in the past) but generally in this small community my wife has been welcomed with open arms. She is well known because she works in a shop right in the centre of the village and well liked because she is bloody good fun.
She has her own circle of farang girl friends and has assimilated amazingly well. Please don't imagine her as some down-trodden Thai bride shut away at home watching Thai soaps on video and longing for the familiarity of Thailand all day long because that particular stereotype does not apply - maybe you can meet her in Hua Hin and see for yourselves!
The questions about Thailand that she has been encountering were not meant as personal attacks on her - how could you glean that from what I had written? These people are not prying about my wife's personal life - they are simply discussing something that is in the news. Naturally they talk to their friend, my wife, about it because she is Thai. I have had the same thing because people know that I regularly holiday in Thailand. The fact that my wife feels a little defensive about her country's name being besmirched by bad press does not mean she is being personally targeted by these people but it might affect the way she views the sentencing of the fishermen, which is the original topic of this thread!
When I wrote that my wife sticks out like a sore thumb I meant physically, not socially!
Jim, maybe you have had an unfortunate personal experience but my own experiences as someone from an immigrant family living in Wales, with a foreign name to boot and with an Asian wife, tell me that your bitter generalisation is way off the mark.
Being part Greek, part Spanish and part Welsh with a Thai wife I think I can safely say that in general people here in the South Wales valleys are very tolerant and welcoming. As an interloper from Cardiff myself, I have been overwhelmed at times with how well my wife has been treated at work and also by my family and friends. She probably has more friends than me in the valleys town we live in ('nuff said).
In my previous post I fell into the trap of imagining only non-whites as 'immigrants.' Of course, although there are few Asian or African immigrants here (relative to the rest of the UK) there have been waves of European immigrants over the last hundred years - my own family included. There is definitely a tradition of tolerance in the South Wales valleys, whose population is an amalgam of those waves of European, including English & Irish, immigrants during the industrial revolution.
Like everywhere else, there are tossers who blindly hate immigrants and my wife has had to encounter a few of those (and I have posted about those incidents in the past) but generally in this small community my wife has been welcomed with open arms. She is well known because she works in a shop right in the centre of the village and well liked because she is bloody good fun.
She has her own circle of farang girl friends and has assimilated amazingly well. Please don't imagine her as some down-trodden Thai bride shut away at home watching Thai soaps on video and longing for the familiarity of Thailand all day long because that particular stereotype does not apply - maybe you can meet her in Hua Hin and see for yourselves!
The questions about Thailand that she has been encountering were not meant as personal attacks on her - how could you glean that from what I had written? These people are not prying about my wife's personal life - they are simply discussing something that is in the news. Naturally they talk to their friend, my wife, about it because she is Thai. I have had the same thing because people know that I regularly holiday in Thailand. The fact that my wife feels a little defensive about her country's name being besmirched by bad press does not mean she is being personally targeted by these people but it might affect the way she views the sentencing of the fishermen, which is the original topic of this thread!
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The sort of reaction to Jaime's wife's I hate to say is noy unusual.
People who live in goldfish bowls often see the rest of the world as a potential threat.
When I was living in Ascot in berkshire (not a million miles from Jim) I had acouple of Spanish Au Pair girls working for me. They wanted to take a trip to London for a day out. I agreed to let them go together as I was quite happy looking after the children myself. (They were out of diapers by then and could feed themselves).
In the preceding week there was a terrorist bomb attack in London (Docklands or the City I think).
Both girls got phone calls from there concerned parents who advised them to avoid London completely until the terrorism had ended.
As they had already booked their day off they decided to go somewhere else.
I told them that London was an enormous city and the chance of another bomb in the area they were planning to visit was equivalent to winning the national lottery two weeks in a row.
They did not listen to me and had a day trip to Windsor. At the time Windsor was high on the IRA's target list as it was a popular tourist spot, it housed three regiments of the British Army and the Queen of England.
All of my advice fell on deaf ears. They ended up returning home early because of a bomb scare.
One murder, especially under the terible circumstance in Koh Samui prior to the murder, is one murder to many.
Anyway, to answer the original posting as to how Thais see it, then I think the answer will depend on many factors. My wife who is a Thai national admits there are Ting Tong Thai and this was an unpleasant unwanted situation.
Iwould think that Thai business owners in Koh Samui may have a more reactionary response which I suspect led to the rapid trial and sentences.
The general feeling though thoughout the country is similar to that of the comment made after a M/C accident death. That is, shit happens but it will not happen to me.
I believe though that most decent Thais are embarassed by the situation just as most decent English people are embarassed about the minority of their football supports who behave badly when travelling to other countries.
People who live in goldfish bowls often see the rest of the world as a potential threat.
When I was living in Ascot in berkshire (not a million miles from Jim) I had acouple of Spanish Au Pair girls working for me. They wanted to take a trip to London for a day out. I agreed to let them go together as I was quite happy looking after the children myself. (They were out of diapers by then and could feed themselves).
In the preceding week there was a terrorist bomb attack in London (Docklands or the City I think).
Both girls got phone calls from there concerned parents who advised them to avoid London completely until the terrorism had ended.
As they had already booked their day off they decided to go somewhere else.
I told them that London was an enormous city and the chance of another bomb in the area they were planning to visit was equivalent to winning the national lottery two weeks in a row.
They did not listen to me and had a day trip to Windsor. At the time Windsor was high on the IRA's target list as it was a popular tourist spot, it housed three regiments of the British Army and the Queen of England.
All of my advice fell on deaf ears. They ended up returning home early because of a bomb scare.
One murder, especially under the terible circumstance in Koh Samui prior to the murder, is one murder to many.
Anyway, to answer the original posting as to how Thais see it, then I think the answer will depend on many factors. My wife who is a Thai national admits there are Ting Tong Thai and this was an unpleasant unwanted situation.
Iwould think that Thai business owners in Koh Samui may have a more reactionary response which I suspect led to the rapid trial and sentences.
The general feeling though thoughout the country is similar to that of the comment made after a M/C accident death. That is, shit happens but it will not happen to me.
I believe though that most decent Thais are embarassed by the situation just as most decent English people are embarassed about the minority of their football supports who behave badly when travelling to other countries.
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To get this back on topic a bit -
I travelled down to Ranong and back yesterday and had the opportunity to speak to some Thais, either on the bus or at pit stops, about this. Numbers only amounted to 4 or so, but in every instance they were very reluctant to discuss it.
I would take that as an indication of the shame they feel. As far as sentencing is concerned, my overall feeling - and I do stress feeling as it was difficult to get a black or white answer - is that they're behind the decision to execute.
I'm sure I'm right that the vast majority of Thais support capital punishment.
I travelled down to Ranong and back yesterday and had the opportunity to speak to some Thais, either on the bus or at pit stops, about this. Numbers only amounted to 4 or so, but in every instance they were very reluctant to discuss it.
I would take that as an indication of the shame they feel. As far as sentencing is concerned, my overall feeling - and I do stress feeling as it was difficult to get a black or white answer - is that they're behind the decision to execute.
I'm sure I'm right that the vast majority of Thais support capital punishment.