UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

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uncle tom
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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by uncle tom » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:26 pm

You'll find all the info within www.gov.uk
That's the 'Janet and John' version of the law. Packed with a cocktail of civil service policy decisions, many of which are only loose interpretations of the law and open to legitimate challenge, as well as statute law. From an academic perspective it's a dreadful site as it doesn't back its assertions and statements with references, nor does it distinguish between 'policy' and actual law.
Don't look too deeply into the legislation, it is easy to be confused by legal jargon.
Lawyers delight in using legal jargon, but all modern legislation is drafted in plain English. Be careful not to take a line out of context and always look for exceptions to the rule. Aside from that, it's not hard going.
You’re automatically resident if either:

you spent 183 or more days in the UK in the tax year
your only home was in the UK - you must have owned, rented or lived in it for at least 91 days in total - and you spent at least 30 days there in the tax year

You’re automatically non-resident if either:

you spent fewer than 16 days in the UK (or 46 days if you haven’t been classed as UK resident for the 3 previous tax years)
you work abroad full-time (averaging at least 35 hours a week) and spent fewer than 91 days in the UK, of which no more than 30 were spent working
OK - now where do these figures appear in law as opposed to guidance notes? In other words, were these figures plucked out of the air by a civil service policy committee, or are they actually enshrined in law?
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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by STEVE G » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:01 pm

I've just found this House of Commons briefing paper that explains the backgound of restricting state pension increases overseas:

Frozen overseas pensions
http://researchbriefings.files.parliame ... N01457.pdf

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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by Dannie Boy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:57 pm

STEVE G wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:01 pm
I've just found this House of Commons briefing paper that explains the backgound of restricting state pension increases overseas:

Frozen overseas pensions
http://researchbriefings.files.parliame ... N01457.pdf
Very interesting article!! Would you or anybody else know what happens to your frozen pension, if and when you return to the UK - say you left when it was £150 a week and when you returned 15 years later and the equivalent pension was say £180 a week, would you automatically get the pension of £180?

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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by dundrillin » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:03 pm

STEVE G wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:01 pm
I've just found this House of Commons briefing paper that explains the backgound of restricting state pension increases overseas:

Frozen overseas pensions
http://researchbriefings.files.parliame ... N01457.pdf
This is a very interesting article. As stated right at the beginning the rationale is explained as being solely to save money. It is indefensible that an annually increasing pension would be paid if one lived in Croatia but not if you live in Thailand. Not that we can expect any government to do the honorable thing,it's all about saving money which is a joke coming from the most wasteful bunch imaginable.

Here's a thought give us the annual increase and use the money from the Foreign Aid budget.

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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by HHTel » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:58 pm

Dannie Boy wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:57 pm
STEVE G wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:01 pm
I've just found this House of Commons briefing paper that explains the backgound of restricting state pension increases overseas:

Frozen overseas pensions
http://researchbriefings.files.parliame ... N01457.pdf
Very interesting article!! Would you or anybody else know what happens to your frozen pension, if and when you return to the UK - say you left when it was £150 a week and when you returned 15 years later and the equivalent pension was say £180 a week, would you automatically get the pension of £180?
You will get the current pension level for any time spent in the UK or other countries in the reciprocal agreement. i.e. The Philippines.
It returns to it's frozen state when you leave.

I've read somewhere, and I can't for the life of me find again, that if you spend 6 months back in the UK (or other named country) that upon leaving, you pension is frozen at the current rate.

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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by HHTel » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:59 pm

HHTel wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:58 pm
Dannie Boy wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:57 pm
STEVE G wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:01 pm
I've just found this House of Commons briefing paper that explains the backgound of restricting state pension increases overseas:

Frozen overseas pensions
http://researchbriefings.files.parliame ... N01457.pdf
Very interesting article!! Would you or anybody else know what happens to your frozen pension, if and when you return to the UK - say you left when it was £150 a week and when you returned 15 years later and the equivalent pension was say £180 a week, would you automatically get the pension of £180?
You will get the current pension level for any time spent in the UK or other countries in the reciprocal agreement. i.e. The Philippines.
It returns to it's frozen state when you leave.

I've read somewhere, and I can't for the life of me find again, that if you spend 6 months back in the UK (or other named country) then upon leaving, your pension is frozen at the current rate.

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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by HHTel » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:01 pm

Oops!

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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by uncle tom » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:12 pm

Interesting - the very existence of that briefing paper indicates that MPs have quite a large postbag on the subject.

Note the line: Essentially, the reason is cost and the desire to focus constrained resources on
pensioners living in the UK


Anyone corresponding on this subject should point out the cost to the NHS and social services of people being forced to return and end their lives in the UK because they can no longer afford to live overseas.

There is also a perception that people who retire overseas are rich b*stards who don't really need their state pension, when in truth, as we all know; many are quite the reverse and seek to retire to a place where the cost of living is cheaper..
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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by StevePIraq » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:30 pm

So it would seem Yemen is a very popular place for British retirees.
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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by uncle tom » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:58 pm

So it would seem Yemen is a very popular place for British retirees
Where few register deaths it would seem..

I dare say there's probably been the odd Thai wife who's been a little tardy when it comes to wrapping up her late husband's affairs - sometimes, probably, in all innocence - because she has no idea who to notify in the UK.

However - let's not dwell too much on that. With Brexit, the iniquity of where pensions are indexed and where they are not is laid bare, and as government will be reluctant to freeze the pensions of those who have retired to places like Spain, there is a good chance that all overseas pensions will get indexed.

I'm meeting my MP at a social event in two weeks time, and will seek to solicit her support for this.

Key campaign points:

1) Most retire abroad because the state pension isn't enough to live on in the UK, and they don't want to beg for benefits - not because they are super rich.

2) By retiring abroad people free up a home, which eases the housing crisis.

3) Many are later forced to return to the UK when they can no longer get health insurance due to their age, or because their state pension has become too devalued - burdening the NHS and social services as a result.

4) Indexing pensions and supporting health insurance schemes for expats that does not exclude people due to existing conditions or because of their age, will save the taxpayer far more than it costs.


Note: By supporting a health insurance scheme, I suggest a top-up scheme whereby expats pay the normal premium for private health insurance based on the local commercial going rate for a healthy 50 yr old, irrespective of their age or current health. The scheme then picks up the tab for the difference.
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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by caller » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:21 pm

http://pensionjustice.org/

http://www.narpo.org/campaign-fairness- ... ensioners/

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/ ... s-pensions

The recommendation's of this one are interesting (skip to the end)

(you will have to play around with the link)

file:///C:/Users/Lenovo/Downloads/Sub08.pdf

This is worth a read, or at least a skim read. It covers much of the debate in Parliament over the years, the views of successive Govt's and legal cases, including the comments of a judge, who whilst agreeing the Government has the right to act as it does, is also critical of them doing so.

http://researchbriefings.files.parliame ... N01457.pdf
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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by uncle tom » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:58 pm

Caroline Lucas spoils her own argument in that Guardian piece.

She refers to pensioners costing the taxpayer £4300 p.a. but I can't square that number - according to the OBR the average state pension figure for the current year is £7610

- But how much does the NHS spend on pensioners?

Here's the stats:

Total spend by NHS on over 65s has passed the £50bn mark.

Total population of UK is now 66 million

Percentage of over 65s is quoted as 18% (but rising rapidly as the baby boomers turn 65)

(you can check all these numbers quite easily by Googling)

So..

18% of 66 million = 11.88 million

50bn divided by 11.88 million = £4208 p.a. per pensioner spent by the NHS

- So people retiring abroad are saving the NHS more than half what they get in pension.

A more complex, but very significant additional sum is the amount spent by local authorities on pensioner welfare.

- The bottom line is that people retiring abroad should be rewarded and helped to do so - not penalised..
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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by caller » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:06 pm

I think the moral argument is well and truly won.

But Government of whatever creed isn't really interested in the argument. They just don't want to pay out and as it stands, the law is on their side.
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Re: UK Retirees to face cuts in Pensions

Post by uncle tom » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:29 pm

I think the moral argument is well and truly won.
Certainly - but think of the reaction of your friends back home when you say you're retiring abroad. Most people tend to come out with lines like 'I wish I could afford that' or 'you lucky b*stard'

To win the political argument we have to make the case that this is not so much the choice of the wealthy, but the choice of those who are responsible but less well off. People who are typically coming up to retirement with no pension other than the state pension, and no assets other than the modest house they live in.

If they stay in the UK they have to go cap in hand for extra benefits, but if they move abroad and use the rental income from their home to top up their state pension, can just about get by without being a burden on the NHS or anyone else.

- The expats need to sell the case that they are the good guys..
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