Surrouned by children at work/in business

[Spitfire]

OK gents, may I canvass a few thoughts here, even if controversial,

I would like to make it clear that I am not talking about spouses/girlfriends or relationships as it's 'each to their own' and many are cool on this level, this thread is not about this area.

What I'd like to hear, is from those that know what they're talking about, when you're doing extra-curricular activities, such as work/business/obserations when you're out and about.

When I'm at work here it can be a joke with the locals that tell me what to do, it doesn't make any sense, but I just do it anyway. They are 40 years old but when I look in their eyes, I can see that they are still in the playground(14 years old). They pay the salary.

There are many indicators of this on differing levels, like vanity/face/////////////////////////.

Sometimes it is really obvious, and there often seems to be little abstract thought/comprehension/consideration/hypothetical consideration etc etc etc.

Now, don't get me wrong, this is not really a grumble, it's more of a request for constructive thoughts from those that know, have been here a while and have noticed too.

OK, I know that this is not applicable to all, and have heard the 'If you don't like, leave stuff' or 'this is Thailand' but it would be interesting to investigate a bit further, rather than accept the default answer that is 'bandied about' all the time.

Just making an honest observation as I have to work and deal with people outside of my regular 'sphere' of influence, which sometimes makes me feel strange/cynical/dismissive etc.

Sometimes I'm 'gob-smacked' at the indifference and child-like responses. This thread comes from some recent observations and experiences, sure it's not new to many.

I am not being negative here, would just like to hear thoughts about it, either positive or negative, from those that have had experience of said subject matter.

I am open to all responses, whatever shape or form they configure themselves in.

Happy to entertain any opinions. Just about outside home life.

Always good to have constructive input.

[IHF]

Peter Pan syndrome, why grow up!

how many shops, restaurants etc do you go in and the staff are chatting on the phone or computer, without a care in the world, long as they get paid at the end of the month, why care!
maybe westerners are to work conscience.
once they get there degree, they think learning or education stops.
Thats why the Thai-chinese own all the business's and have all the money.

[Wanderlust]

spitfire,
I worked in retail in the UK for many years and I really don't think there is that much difference in that area between the UK and Thailand; there will be some conscientious people, and some who couldn't care less, who you could instruct 1000 times in how to do something and they still wouldn't get it, or who had zero initiative. The only thing that may be different is that in Thailand it goes higher up the 'food chain' and the proportions between the 'conscientious' and 'couldn't care less' groups are more weighted towards the latter than in the UK. From my general observations I also think when you find a good worker, or are getting served in a bar/restaurant/shop any good service you receive is a lot better than its equivalent back home, but equally bad service is that much worse. How much of that is down to the individual and their attitude to foreigners and/or language skills I don't know, but it would be interesting to get a Thais perspective on what they perceive when they go to the UK or other foreign country.

[IHF]

my wife who is Thai, wont go into Tesco because the level of service from the staff. I know they are the most unhelpful lot I have ever seen, even in the stores in bkk.
Being a foreign company there standards should be higher.
even in the market I see Thai people wanting to buy goods from stalls. and the seller just ignore them then they walk away and buy somewhere else.

[Cowtown Comedy]

there will be some conscientious people, and some who couldn't care less

I definitely agree with this statement. I don't think it matters what country you are in. It comes down to incentives and motivation. What drives people to work hard? It has to be something more than the minimal wage most retail workers receive.

What i have noticed in my own business is that Thai people don't expect the same level of service that westerners do, and our Thai staff have finally discovered that they need to approach western customers differently.

[STEVE G]

One thing I learnt to watch out for when working in Indonesia was the fact that many people in the upper levels of companies had been employed purely because of who they were, or who there family was, and they could often have absolutely no idea about what they were doing there.
At one time I had to visit an airlines maintenance director occasionally to discuss technical matters, and he would just look at me blankly saying “I see” to anything I said, and then go and play golf!

[Super Joe]

Agree with everything said but lets not lose sight of the fact (imo) that if it was not like this many of us would not be living here or married to beautiful young Thai wives.

SJ

[buksida]

In the working environment "face" is everything, the concept explains why many things don't run smoothly and a lot of things simply don't get done.

Education is also a major player, the killing of the questioning mind at school results in an employee simply not completing a task or making a complete cockup of it rather than asking if they're not quite sure how it should be done.

Not sure how any of this relates to marrying young women.

[Super Joe]

Well to me its their lack of an opportunity to have a decent education and disciplined upbringing that is normal for a poor'ish developing 3rd world country.
Without a developed, prosperous business environment where higher salaries are given and careers entered into that people are keen to hold onto and progress up the ladder etc. Whereas as it is here they walk from one 6k a month job straight into another just because you shouted at them over something.
If it was a developed prosperous country, girls would not need to work in bars for peanuts to take care of their families and the general cost of living would be higher preventing many foreigners to retire here early.
Would an 18 year old beauty marry a 50 year old slob if she was earning 60k a month and had her own house, can't see it.

That's what I was sort of getting at, but pretty much off-topic so I'll zip it

Cheers,
SJ

[Wanderlust]

Part of the reason here could also be that many people get jobs because they are family or close friends with someone else at a place of work, and ability and qualifications (where appropriate) don't enter into the equation; equally, once a family member is there, it will be rare for them to be sacked. My Thai mother in law is one of the hardest working people I have ever known, running a huge asparagus farm, but she is constantly beset with problems brought about by the large number of lazy and dishonest cousins and other family that she employs. Not only does she give them employment and put up with their antics, she has to listen to gossip about her being keeneauw (tight with money) and various other abuses, while being the first one they will turn to when they have to go to hospital, pay for a wedding/monk party etc etc. If it wasn't for her they would all be working at the pineapple canning factory on half the wages and double the hours, if they were lucky! I'm sure this story is repeated all over Thailand as well.

[buksida]

Well to me its their lack of an opportunity to have a decent education and disciplined upbringing that is normal for a poor'ish developing 3rd world country.
Without a developed, prosperous business environment where higher salaries are given and careers entered into that people are keen to hold onto and progress up the ladder etc. Whereas as it is here they walk from one 6k a month job straight into another just because you shouted at them over something.

So you're basically blaming the lying, thieving, corrupt government for the lack of prosperity, business, education and opportunity for the good folk of this country. When put like that I agree with you!

[sandman67]

Im with Buksi - the education system kills any reasoning and logic abilities as it teaches by rote and asking questions is seen as being disruptive and rude. Its also woefully inadequate on world issues and perspectives, is wildly nationalistic, and teaches that Thai = right all the time.

Combine this with the ease of which people walk in and out of jobs, as SJ points out, the mai pen rai/dont give a stuff attitude, cultural acceptance of corruption as a norm, and face issues and there you have it....

its a shame, but it will fix itself eventually.

Im just starting to adapt I think....in shops i expect the staff to be indifferent or unknowledgable about what they sell. At the market I just go to another stall if I get ignored....suits me.

but for all its ills Id still rather be here than back as a stranger in a strange land I was born in.

[webmaster]

I agree with Buksi's points as well as Sandman's. However there are more complicated issues at play when it comes to understanding Thais in social and business life.

I have to admit after running a business for the last 8 years dealing with Thai businesses from bottom to top levels, there are still lots of things I can't except how well I understand the reasons behind it.

My suggestion would be to all working or retired in expats in Thailand to read the following books, especially if you are planing to live here and do business.

- Culture Shock Thailand
- Thais Mean Business
- Thailand Beyond the Fringe

All written by Robert Cooper, Thais Mean Business was initially written in early 80s and there was an updated version in 2001 but you can still see there hasn't much changed in the work life even after the big boom and the crash.

Also when you read his last book (hilarious) which covers subjects like,

#On Doing as the Thais Do
#On Arse-licking for Beginners
#On Assassination and Conflict Avoidance
#On Avoiding Avoidance
#On Telephone Manners
#On Wai, Why, When, Who

or on more of daily life subjects like,

#On Getting Your Teeth Done
#On Paying Through the Nose
#On My Pen Rai
#On Good Girls and Bad Girls
#On Marriage
#On Nuptials, the Cost and Benefits
#On Visiting Thais Home

and there are some other 100 subjects which will give you the real background of many things we fail to understand, I don't think that will make most of you accept the Thai way of doing business. It's just so different then what we were brought up with and it's just Thai.

PS: I have no connection to the author nor the publicist, my suggestions are purely on offering reliable advise

[Spitfire]

Well, good stuff from all here, couple of things I'd like to mention,

WL - It would be interesting to get an Asian's opinion on visiting the west on the same level.

and

I bet they all "run home to mummy" when the brown stuff hits the fan. Same with my wife, she's the oldest of a few sisters, and when it goes south with "scooter boy" or work etc, then they end up at my house 'turning on the water-works'. I just shake my head and she gives me the 'don't even think of saying anything look', have to control my words sometimes as it's all just "drama-rama"/watched too much TV sort of stuff.

IHF - Agree, the Peter Pan syndrome, well put.

Buksi, SJ, SM67 - I'll go with that, sounds about right.

Cowtown - Good point!

STEVE G - I can just imagine you coming across a few situations like that.

Webmaster - Lots of reading there but probably spot on.

As a thought, maybe it's good that they haven't/can't/won't sort it out properly, in this sense, as it would be a less of an attractive place to reside if they had got things "nob-on", it might remind us of the insanity that cracks off back home too much and reduce the reasons to be here.

Thanks for the input and also to anyone else who may wish to add thoughts.

[Rider]

One thing I learnt to watch out for when working in Indonesia was the fact that many people in the upper levels of companies had been employed purely because of who they were, or who there family was, and they could often have absolutely no idea about what they were doing there.
At one time I had to visit an airlines maintenance director occasionally to discuss technical matters, and he would just look at me blankly saying “I see” to anything I said, and then go and play golf!

Heh, I know what you mean, I see that in the construction and oil and gas industry sometimes! :O