Psychiatry - A Dark Art

[lindosfan1]

deleted double post sorry

[LAnative]

Never could understand how TALKING can help a mental malady. How does making vocal noises increase Seratonin or Noepinephine levels? It MAY relieve some stress and reduce Cortisol levels but that doesn't much effect chemicals that take away the fatigue and boredom does it? I really would like an educated answer on this as I have been with this latest therapist about 1 year and have gotten WORSE rather than better IMHO(think multiple tatoos on both arms). I NEVER would have punched all these holes in my body before resuming therapy after a 20 yr. layoff. This is in conjunction with meds. Don't some get WORSE from therapy? I read once that 1/3 get better,1/3 stay the same and 1/3 get worse. Is that true?
VERY interesting topic thread. Keep it going. It seems we have several experienced people in the field there. An unexpected and fascinating read.
Cheers
LAN

[margaretcarnes]

Can't give you an educated answer to that LA, only one based on experience. First though I don't think talking - ie counselling - can help much, if at all, with mental health problems which have a physical cause.
Lindosfan has already pointed out that in serious cases there really isn't much can be done apart from a lifetime of drugs.
But contrary to SteveG's perception of 'normal healthy individuals seeking therapy for what are basically lifestyle problems' - there are definitely situations when counselling is the only sensible option for dealing with temporary problems.
First though it is essential that you find the right therapist. You must feel comfortable with them and have enough rapport to be able to open up. Otherwise you will feel frustrated about lack of progress, and the therapist will only be scratching the surface.
My own experience in therapy (as an otherwise normal and healthy individual) was to help cure a very serious reaction to a road traffic accident, which resulted in a panic attack when I first ventured onto a motorway after the accident.
In a situation like that you have 2 choices. Live with it (and never drive out of town again because the panic is so bad you would be a danger to self and others on the road, as well as not being able to carry on with your job) or seek help.
In such cases, which I really don't see as just a 'lifestyle' problem, the therapist tries to identify the trigger. First by talking. Then, in my case, in more practical ways like gradual and supported re-introduction to the environment which has caused the problem.
Importantly though goals were set, along with some fairly flexible timescales.
Strangely enough my own final part of a qualification in counselling ended abruptly along with the accident. But the therapy did help a lot - taking about 6 months. It wasn't 100%, and probably never will be. But the aim is to help recognise triggers as well as cope with them.
IMHO this is how good counselling/therapy should be. Realistic. So if you don't feel that yours is helping, and can't relate to the therapist, it's probably time for a change.

[hhfarang]

LAnative wrote:

Don't some get WORSE from therapy?

Didn't you say you were in therapy? You should be able to answer that question from your own experience. Has it helped you are are you worse?

I think it is all in the type of individual. Some respond to therapy and some don't. I saw a shrink once at the urging of my (then) wife in an effort to save a failing marriage. She was seeing him as a marriage counselor and he wanted to talk to me. After one session with me he told her there was no hope for the relationship so I was definitely helped by him!

[LAnative]

Thanks Margaret for you brave admission to having had therapy in a climate that can be hostile to those who have.
My situation isn't phobic/panic that is triggered by similar events. Mine is long term low level chronic depression We both likely have PTSD from different life circumstances (mine from long term violence and stress in my environment) and yours from a traumatic event. EMDR is worth investigating for that.
I am comfortable with my current therapist, actually she is the HOTTEST therapist I ever had (very good looking) and have tried many others over the years with little success. Just wanted to know the MECHANISM that causes the brain to produce the correct amount of neurotransmitters just by moving your mouth.
Good luck with undoing your triggers. Meditation can help with that.
Cheers
Drama Queen

[margaretcarnes]

Thanks LA - I've never had a problem with talking about the therapy in question and never had any adverse reaction from other people about it. Maybe because I viewed it as just getting appropriate treatment - just like going to the Doc for a pill.
Different ailments require different treatments. Hopefully if people are more open about their experiences we can help to make others more aware that therapy is nothing to be ashamed of.
As for driving - the great British tradition of bus passes solves the problem forever.

[LAnative]

Well said Margaret. It requires courage to go into things that make you fearful or anxious and all those that belittle it IMO are cowards, afraid to face their fears.
Keep on.
Drama Queen

[elem]

interesting read...and sorry could not resist...
Gotta get me some of that Damnitol!!!!


NEW DRUGS FOR WOMEN

D A M N I T O L
Take 2 and the rest of the world can go to hell for up to 8 full
hours.

E M P T Y N E S T R O G E N
Suppository that eliminates melancholy and loneliness by reminding
you of how awful they were as teenagers and how you couldn't wait till
hey moved out.

ST.M O M M A'S W O R T
Plant extract that treats mom's depression by rendering preschoolers
unconscious for up to two days.

P E P T O B I M B O
Liquid silicone drink for single women. Two full cups swallowed
before an evening out increases breast size, decreases intelligence,
and >prevents conception.

D U M B E R O L
When taken with Peptobimbo, can cause dangerously low IQ, resulting
in enjoyment of country music and pickup trucks.

M E N I C I L L I N
Potent anti-boy-otic for older women. Increases resistance to such
lethal lines as, "You make me want to be a better person. "

BUYAGRA
Injectable stimulant taken prior to shopping Increases shopping, and
credit limit of spending spree.

J A C K A S S P I R I N
Relieves headache caused by a man who can't remember your birthday,
anniversary, phone number, or to lift the toilet seat.

A N T I-T A L K S I D E N T
A spray carried in a purse or wallet to be used on anyone too eager
to share their life stories with total strangers in elevators.

N A G A M E N T
When administered to a boyfriend or husband, provides the same
irritation level as nagging him.

[MrPlum]

Funny.

[hhfarang]

Hey! In my younger years, I think I dated some girls on peptobimbo and dumberol!

[LAnative]

Absolutely hilarious elem. Never dated anyone on Peptobimbo or Dumerol but would LIKE to! They might even find me attractive. Do Thai girls use them. I read that you can buy any drugs there without a prescription.
My 2nd wife must have a secret stash of Buyagra hidden about. Credit card debt was in the thousands! Dodged a bullet went she dumped me. . I will petition government to have Nagament declared a dangerous drug and removed from the market!
Great stuff
DQ

[margaretcarnes]

Sorry for the delay getting back to your links Mr P - jut tried a week on the Dumberol
(Didn't work - I still can't stand C & W)
Anyway back to Lawrence Stevens et al. At first sight of these articles the distinct impression is of psychiatrists deserting a sinking ship because there is not YET a biological link to mental illness.
Another psychiatrist - Richard Bentall - in his book 'Why Psychiatric Treatments Fail' cites chemical imbalance and genetic theories of mental illness as simplistic formulas. But also disputes the definitions of disorders such as schitzophrenia and bi-polar disorder. Which seems to roughly concur with Lawrence Stevens argument that biological problems detract from the real problem, ie 'learned behaviour'.
I'm sure 'learned behaviour' can often cause psychological problems, and patients can be helped to 'un learn'. Any mention of NLP though quite honestly gives me the heebie jeebies!
NLP became popular in the UK in the 80s as a training tool, and in that context I personally found it threatening and manipulative. But maybe with some forms of mental illness this same manipulative technique is what is needed.
That said there must still surely be short term benefits for some patients on some drugs?
And there is still the issue of how to treat severely affected patients who may of course simply have become dependant on drug use. Shouldn't psychiatrists be trying to develop ways of humanely weaning people off them, rather than just (it seems) giving up on a branch of medicine which they find - possibly due to lack of scientific knowledge - unable to justify anymore?

[MrPlum]

Sorry for the delay getting back to your links Mr P - jut tried a week on the Dumberol
(Didn't work - I still can't stand C & W)
Anyway back to Lawrence Stevens et al. At first sight of these articles the distinct impression is of psychiatrists deserting a sinking ship because there is not YET a biological link to mental illness.
Another psychiatrist - Richard Bentall - in his book 'Why Psychiatric Treatments Fail' cites chemical imbalance and genetic theories of mental illness as simplistic formulas. But also disputes the definitions of disorders such as schitzophrenia and bi-polar disorder. Which seems to roughly concur with Lawrence Stevens argument that biological problems detract from the real problem, ie 'learned behaviour'.
I'm sure 'learned behaviour' can often cause psychological problems, and patients can be helped to 'un learn'. Any mention of NLP though quite honestly gives me the heebie jeebies!
NLP became popular in the UK in the 80s as a training tool, and in that context I personally found it threatening and manipulative. But maybe with some forms of mental illness this same manipulative technique is what is needed.
That said there must still surely be short term benefits for some patients on some drugs?
And there is still the issue of how to treat severely affected patients who may of course simply have become dependant on drug use. Shouldn't psychiatrists be trying to develop ways of humanely weaning people off them, rather than just (it seems) giving up on a branch of medicine which they find - possibly due to lack of scientific knowledge - unable to justify anymore?

The arguments the articles put forward are that there are only 5% who need specialist care from neurologists, who are more highly trained Doctors than psychiatrists, while the rest need education or the power of the state to deter them from harming themselves or the public. In other words, they don't need a separate Psychiatric Profession. The argument isn't whether people need help or support. Some clearly do. It's not that there aren't well-meaning people working in the system providing support. We know there are. It's that Psychiatry itself is not the answer. A Psychiatrist looks at everyone through the prism of his own indoctrination. We are either patients or potential patients. A Psychiatrist IMO is the WRONG person to discuss this topic.

Niggle quite rightly said we all don't have the benefit of being able to run off to Thailand. I'm sure the 'chemical cosh' is the most convenient way to control the violent or the self-harmers. It might be convenient for the carers but is it the best treatment for us?

When you see individuals like LAnative still struggling after years of 'professional' help. Or the post where the young child was running wild and a whole host of 'professionals' could apparently do nothing to change him. You have to question their methods. I'm sure Sarge in his military days has seen out of control yobs transformed after a good kicking. I certainly have. Having said that, when you have a child that only sleeps two hours per night, that says to me it's more than just a violent tendency. Jamie Oliver PROVED that if children are given a nutritious diet and they cut out all the sodas, etc. they calm down and their IQ increases. I'm not saying this is the definitive answer, especially when the herd mentality, peer pressure and the emasculation of parents, drives these youngsters into 'sink-estate' thuggery. But I wonder if any of those professionals even considered it?

There are other countries around the world where they don't see 'abnormal' behaviour as signs of mental disease. The village idiot is tolerated as long as he doesn't hurt anyone else. In Japan suicide is venerated and those who commit Hari-Kari are revered. In Thailand they don't toss their elderly into care homes. In the U.S. half the prison population have been diagnosed as mentally ill. That's over 1 million people, who's crimes are almost always due to poverty.

I said in my original post that drugs were 'brain changing, libido-numbing, zombie-making, toxic potions'. Well, instead of reacting with blind hostility and rage, why not go and research the subject to see if there is any validity to the claim? It's very 'unprofessional' I have to say to make judgments based on emotion and not study. What would a Psychiatrist make of it?

Take each one. 'Brain-changing'
http://www.mindfreedom.org/kb/psychiatr ... ain-damage
Do a search for 'psychiatric drugs cause permanent brain changes'

'libido-numbing'
This is not even challengeable. It's a listed side effect of many psychiatric drugs including one that I was given, Seroxat. Popular antidepressants commonly cause a loss of interest in sex and block the ability to achieve sexual satisfaction.

'zombie-making'
Again, this is what people feel like when their nervous systems are dampened down by anti-depressants. You have no highs or lows but you feel like a 'zombie'. The term 'Zombie Nation' is well known.

'toxic potions'
I don't need to defend this at all. When Cocaine, Marijuana, LSD, Speed, Barbiturates, atc.. are denied us and we are carted off to jail for our own protection and the protection of society, how can they then be deemed safe to give to children, when prescribed by a man in a white coat? In fact in some instances FORCED on children. It's obscene. And those who are hurling abuse at someone who presents the truth, do so while drinking alcohol and smoking tobacco. Known poisons. Hmmm...

The data is out there. Go and look for it.
http://www.virtualcitizens.com/articles/ZombieNation

Whether it's mainstream medical care or psychiatry, we have systems which perpetrate violence on the individual in the name of 'health'. You can dress it up in whatever fine words you like but that is what we have. It's as far away from the Hippocratic Oath as you can get. Saying so may make me unpopular. It doesn't make me wrong.

Speaking strictly as a 'backsliding, mental case', like.

[hhfarang]

'toxic potions'

Hey I did a ton of those when I was young and I don't have any dain brammage!

[MrPlum]

'toxic potions'

Hey I did a ton of those when I was young and I don't have any dain brammage!

I see the problem hhf. You need 'quack preparations' like Salad Dressing. If you really want to push the envelope you could risk pickled onions followed by Apple Chutney. You can recognize them by the Government Health Warnings.