Last Names

[migrant]

I believe there was some discussion before, but I can't seem to find it.

My Thai wife is using a hypenated name, ie. Thai-American.

But her passport is in Thai and the land she owns near Cha Am is in her Thai name.

She wants to get her citizenship here, but we will be retiring to Thailand in 2-4 years.

I remember reading that Thailand always recognizes their citizens irregardless of any other countries citizenship status.

Any experiences, or words of wisdom for us?

Thanks

[T.I.G.R.]

My wife has always kept her Thai I.D. and it has proved very useful in business transactions such as banking and property purchases.

I just checked with her and she said she uses it for any transactions involving the government. She still uses her maiden name but has added a Mrs. to it, which she say is how they do it over here.

She uses her American passport and files 90 day reports with me on our retirement Visa though.....I guess since she uses the American passport to travel. I insisted she let her Thai passport expire and she just told me to tell you to let your wife keep hers because it will save you money when you move your household goods over here.

I'm still taking grief for not wanting her to renew hers.......silly me, I was worried about which one she would use to travel, afraid it would get her into trouble. I've learned to keep my mouth shut since we came over here.

[HansMartin]

My wife is Thai and had a valid green card when we met in CA. Before we got married she applied for US citizenship. She finally became a US citizen after we got married. Her reasons were:
1. She wanted to vote against GWB
2. She wanted citizenship security
3. Bets me -- she had both her kids here and they had green cards. They are now both US citizens.

Being a US citizen has caused problems. She had to get a new Thai ID to buy property which meant a trip back to her village for old, old school records. And now I have an opportunity to work in Guam and travel back and forth to Thailand while she stays in BKK. So now she has visa issues !!!

We have numerous friends where the woman has kept her Thai citizenship and has a green card. Actually it is fairly unusual in my experience for the women to become a US citizen.

If we had to do it over again and I knew what I know now, I would say to stick with the green card and Thai citizenship. Of course she wouldn't listen to me any more than you wife will listen to you.

[hhfarang]

Keeping a green card is predicated on having a U.S. address and living there a certain number of days out of the year. If you live outside the U.S. for more than (used to be six months), you lose it. I know because my wife had one when we moved here.

It is a "permanent resident" card so that when you are no longer a permanent resident, you lose it. They can tell by monitoring your passport when you enter and exit the country and if you stay out too long (or don't spend a certain number of days per year in the U.S.), they take it away.

I believe both countries accept (as in look the other way even though they don't like it) dual citizenship so a Thai spouse should have no trouble holding two passports.

I'm just not sure how you travel then. Some have told me they use the U.S. passport traveling to and entering the U.S. and the Thai passport traveling back and entering Thailand so that there is no need for a visa either way, but I wonder if immigration really doesn't look for a paper trail of where you've been (since it would be split between two passports and you probably wouldn't want to show both).

[T.I.G.R.]

I've tried to have the two passport discussion with my wife and just end up with a headache. The only time you actually would need the Thai passport is when she moves back to Thailand....then as a returning Thai there would be no tax on the household goods.

Other than that there is the discussion of the Thai I.D.

According to my wife, she's run into two situations regarding which name she uses on her Thai ID

If you want to buy property, a Thai woman can have a Mrs. attached to her maiden name and buy as much property as she wants.

If she uses her married name on her Thai ID, and she is married to an American, it is our understanding she would be limited to purchasing one rai.

My wife uses her maiden name and has bought several pieces of property with no problem. I have never been asked to relinquish any ownership I might have and she has never been asked to prove where the money came from.

The biggest problem we had was with K-Bank. I wanted to use their on-line banking program. According to them, a non-thai is not allowed to use internet banking. The same turned out to be true for Bangkok Bank.

To get around this little problem my wife had to change her name on all of our accounts to her Thai name, then apply for on-line banking. Once we were set up she changed her name back to her American married name. Then she had to fill out a form that allowed me to use the on-line system under her "supervision" I guess.

She had to change her name back because any cross-banking activity must have the same names on both the American account and the Thai account. We even had a problem one time when only one of our names was on a check we wanted to deposit into our joint account......it was a lot of jabbering back and forth and calls to Bangkok but we were finally allowed to deposit the check.

I hope this helps someone.....you are always encouraged to PM me if your wife wants to discuss these things with my wife, and we men can stay out of it.

[hhfarang]

Yes, the Thai ID is important in many situations. When my wife lived in the U.S. she maintained her ID using her mother's address in the village where she came from so that she never lost it.

T.I.G.R.,

I'm not sure about this, I just heard it as gossip somewhere (maybe Lomu knows) but I think that "only one rai law if married to a foreigner" as well as the "can't vote law if married to a foreigner" were rescinded recently and currently a Thai can be married to a farang without any loss of rights.

Anyone know for sure if this is true?

[Super Joe]

My wife uses her maiden name and has bought several pieces of property with no problem. I have never been asked to relinquish any ownership I might have and she has never been asked to prove where the money came from.

There's a really important issue here chaps. If a Thai buys land and is married to a foreigner, the foreigner MUST sign the land office declaration that the funds were all her 'personal property' and not part of the 'marital property', irrespective of the following:
a) The marriage has been lawfully registered or not.
b) Whether she has taken your surname or retained her own Thai surname.
c) Whether her Thai ID card says Ms. or Mrs, her surname or your surname.
d) Whether or not the land office official says sign off is required.

If the foreigner does not sign the declaration then the land was acquired, and is being held, illegally by the Thai. Sometimes the land office, or certain officials, only request foreigner sign off where Thai spouse has taken foreigners surname, this is not the correct procedure and there will be no liability to the land office at a later date. No proof of where the funds came from is required.
Where the foreigner did not sign the declaration lawyers say you can go back retrospectively and sign it, but then you are taking a risk by highlighting your situation and penalties may be applied.
However, will anything ever come of it ? very much doubt it unless deliberately reported by someone and it will not affect the Thai selling the land.

SJ

[migrant]

I sure appreciate the answer everyone!!!

My wife had her green card before we even met, but has always wanted citizenship. I think it's just a goal for her, but like many Thai women, she probably won't drop it until accomplished.

The name change is real good to know also. No immediate plans to buy further property, but would hate to be limited so if anyone knows if the 1 rai is still in effect, I'd appreciate knowing it! If I find out I'll also post.

Thanks again for all the help!! T.I.G.R. I'll see if she will take you up on your kind PM offer and would gladly leave it between the women!!!!

[T.I.G.R.]

SJ -

Your first and last sentences are at odds with each other. My wife's ID card clearly identifies her as a Mrs. I clearly don't look like a Thai, and have been with her when she went to the land office on every occasion since she doesn't drive here. My identity and our relationship is clearly evident in every case (actually 3 cases).

So my question would be if I MUST sign something why didn't the people at the land office give me something to sign? Why haven't any of the other professional people, either attorneys or real estate representatives mentioned this necessity?

This is a typical example of people quoting Thai law when we all know it depends on what day it is, the phase of the moon and who had what for lunch.

A further example for us all is we have a court case in progress where the seller failed to provide the chanote as promised when "we" bought a house where the land was paid for first and a note was taken on the house itself. I've sat next to my wife in open testimony at Prauchaup Kiri Khan where the entire transaction was covered in great detail. We also have retained an attorney and met him in the same courthouse complex, and attended a settlement conference with the defendant's attorney and the Thai judge who will eventually hear the case......no-one has ever questioned my wife's ability to own the property or hold a chanote. One would think someone might bring it up amongst all of those legal experts wouldn't you?

So there you go......whatever law there is here is as meaningful as a wisp of smoke.

[Super Joe]

The name change is real good to know also. No immediate plans to buy further property, but would hate to be limited so if anyone knows if the 1 rai is still in effect, I'd appreciate knowing it

There's no limit on size of land, for any nationality, in the Land Department's or Ministry of Interior's regulations that were introduced in 1999, allowing Thai spouses of foreigners to purchase land.
There are a couple of regulations where a limit of 1 Rai applies, but it is not relevant to this issue. Best check with a lawyer ofcourse.

SJ

[Super Joe]

SJ - Your first and last sentences are at odds with each other.

Sorry TIGR which sentences are at odds ? I genuinely do not know which parts you mean.

I'm just pointing out what the laws are, whether people wish to take note of them or not is up to the individual, I hold property via Limited Company so can hardly talk and am not concerned either. But if by signing the declaration it makes it totally legal in accordance with the land laws, then why not.
About attorney’s, all their websites and publications I’ve ever seen referring to Thai spouses of foreigners DO mention the need to sign the declaration. The whole point of my post was that in practice 'some' land office officials and attorney’s will not mention it.
Section 86 of the Land Code:
"An alien whose spouse is a Thai national either legitimate or illegitimate, that Thai national can purchase land but the alien spouse of that Thai national must give a joint written confirmation that the money which that Thai national will expend on purchasing the land is wholly the separate property or personal effects of that Thai national and not the Sin Somros or jointly acquired property."

Why haven't any of the other professional people, either attorneys or real estate representatives mentioned this necessity?

I just did and you nearly bit me head off

SJ

[T.I.G.R.]

SJ -

Sorry about nearly biting your head off. I think I was a little apprehensive about how open I've been and worrying about potential consequences. A favorite habit.

I've re-written this three times already and my considered opinion is you and I are essentially saying the same thing in different ways.

In your first sentence you say " There's a really important issue here chaps. If a Thai buys land and is married to a foreigner, the foreigner MUST sign the land office declaration that the funds were all her 'personal property' and not part of the 'marital property....................."

In your last sentence you say "However, will anything ever come of it ? very much doubt it unless deliberately reported by someone and it will not affect the Thai selling the land."

So what you're saying is it's really, really important, but maybe not. Kind of like having it both ways, yeah?

I'm essentially saying I'm aware of the law but it's not like I'm going to insist they make me adhere to it, and they clearly haven't.

So I think we've both done our job here......pointed out the facts, pointed out the discrepancy with the government's failure to follow their own rules, and generally confused the hell out of everyone.

A good days work don't you think?

[Super Joe]

Hi TIGR, see what you mean now. What I was saying was that it is important in that you can be fully compliant with the land code, but then expressing my personal opinion that nothing will likely come of it unless some kind of dispute arises where it is specifically addressed.

Agree that the laws aren't always enforced here etc, but there has been a Supreme Court ruling covering this matter so for me best to sign the declaration. I've seen in land office a couple of times where an official has themselves proposed a solution to transfer or issuing of lease between spouses via the Thai surname on ID card.

Cheers,
SJ

[leo65]

hi migrant,
my wife has double citizenship (Thai and Italian) and double passport.
No problem at all! banks, buying properties, travelling (when leave Italy use italian passport when enter in Thailand use thai passport and viceversa), etc.
Should be the same for US citizen

bye
leo65