Road show re Expats

[richard]

Ministry of Interior holds road show on rights of foreigners in Thailand

By Shana Kongmun

The Ministry of Interior came to Chiang Mai Grandview Hotel on Thursday, June 16, 2010 to answer a few questions and to determine what expatriate residents, consulates and the media feel are needed changes in some of the fundamentals of life for foreigners in Thailand.

Deputy Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Interior Kwanchai Wongnitkorn opened the session asking for people to contribute their ideas freely to the symposium.

Deputy Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of the Interior Kwanchai Wongnitkorn opened the event by remarking to the crowd that this was the second such conference, one had been held in Bangkok in February and another was planned for Songkhla. He told the gathered crowd that included Mrs. Junko Yakata, the Japanese Consul General, Ben Svasti Thomson, the British Honourary Consul, Chinese Consul General Zhu Weimin, and other representatives of consulates in Chiang Mai that they had been assigned by the Ministry of Interior to discuss ideas. He said the Prime Minister Abhisit Vejajiva wanted the Ministry to see if the government has any room for improvement or anything it can extend to its expatriate residents to help promote investment and habitation rights.

The conferences are being held to collect information and suggestions that will be sent to a committee for refinement and then sent to the Cabinet for consideration. The goal, he said, “is to provide the best possible consistent system for everyone”.

He added, “they have to be plausible and feasible concepts that fall under the law, we can’t start everything new but we can come up with some reasonable propositions.”

The Director of the Foreign Affairs Division Tassana Vichaitanapat laid out the framework of the conference and the 5 major issues to be addressed; rights to nationality, immigration and habitation rights, right to work, investment rights and alien’s rights to property.

Director Tassana said, “We are trying to improve our legal framework. Part of our expectation is that we can develop frameworks about laws that foreigners can read.”

“The starting point,” he added, “is to hear your suggestions and recommendations. In our talks, we want to make sure that we will adhere to the law. We can think outside the box but our underlying focus is the legality of the propositions and that we understand our legal frameworks.”

The first issue of naturalization to Thai citizenship by foreigner was addressed by the Department of Provincial Administration representative. Foreigners must add themselves to the census registration (house registration, ie tabien ban). Holders of Permanent residency can get a blue book (Tor Ror 14) and holders of temporary visas can get on the yellow book (Tor Ror 13) before they can apply for naturalization. The Provincial Administration reiterated an important point, that foreigners have the right to be listed on the census registration, “It is not well known even among officials. We have contacted registration officials that you have this right and you should insist on it.”

The official discussed the inequalities facing Thai women married to foreigners stating that it is a cultural construct, “While we have equal rights under the Constitution, the law is different. Men are regarded as the head of the family in our culture, they need to be able to earn a living and support their wives.”

The requirements for naturalization were laid out, including the income requirements for both those married to Thais and those not married to Thais. The linguistics requirement has been reduced but the applicant must be able to sing the National and Royal anthems. Speaking and listening is mandatory but reading and writing is no longer required.

Application can be made to either the Special Branch Police department in Bangkok or the Provincial Police in the province the foreigner resides.

The official pointed out that if those people who naturalize as Thai citizens are found using the passport of their previous country the Thai citizenship will be revoked. Applicants must relinquish their previous nationality and the Ministry of Interior will report their cases to their embassies.

The next issue under discussion was Immigration and the right of habitation. Immigration officials discussed the various visas and how to obtain them as well as how to obtain Permanent Residency. The main issue of contention brought up by multiple Consul Generals, including Japanese Consul General Junko Yakata, was that of the 90 day reporting required of all foreigners on long stay visa extensions. Consul General Yakata told the officials that there are 3,000 Japanese nationals living in Northern Thailand. She requested a simplification of the process, perhaps by extending the length of time needed in between reports.

Chinese Consul General Zhu Weimin requested a change in the 90 day reporting procedure as well, citing the large numbers of Chinese students who attend Chiang Mai schools who cannot take time off from school to travel to Immigration to report. He suggested they open on the weekends for those who have jobs and classes.

The official justified the 90 day reporting by saying “it allows us the best possible protection. If someone goes missing then we have more recent information as to their whereabouts to give to the Embassy.”

The officials said they would consider amending the length of the report and might add reporting via the internet in the future.

Martin Venzky-Stalling of Chiang Mai University suggested they streamline their procedures to attract foreign investors. He recommended a business visa for those who come to conduct business in Thailand. He also suggested a form of a green card which contains both permanent residency and the right to work, and an extension for international students to stay on after they graduate to enable them to undertake internships or further job training.

The Labour Department was next, again citing the various regulations for work permits. Chris Hedges of the Chiang Mai Expats Club put forth a question that concerns many Chiang Mai residents; that of the definition of work and those retired expats who wish to volunteer to help in their new homes. The Labour Department official, while not refusing to put forth the idea to the committee stated, “Retirees are not here to work. Their visa is issued for one particular purpose and they have to adhere to that.”

Suggestions were put forth to amend this regulation as well as to implement a one stop service similar to that of Bangkok in Chiang Mai. The officials said that this would have to be approved by the Cabinet but that the suggestion would be put forth. Zhang Zhi Ren, Chinese Commercial Consul suggested that an accurate, updated website with different languages would be of great benefit as well as having officials who speak other languages.

Foreigners’ right to property was the final topic, with officials listing the requirements for owning and buying condos. Additionally, the spouse of a Thai person can inherit one rai of land for residential or commercial purposes or 10 rai of agricultural land if their Thai spouse dies. If the spouse held more than the requirement, then the foreign partner has one year to sell or to give away. Thai children can inherit from their parents, and foreign parents can buy land for their children if they are minors but must apply for a court ruling before purchasing.

Requests were made to make it easier for those living and working in Thailand to purchase a condo without having to bring money in from outside the country. Additionally, restrictions on condo ownership percentages were suggested to be relaxed.

The meeting concluded with Japanese Consul General Yakata saying,” We are encouraged that you come here to listen to our suggestions and we would like to know how they fare.”

Director Tassana ended by stating “We are here to take on your suggestions and to serve you to the best of our abilities. We will compile your questions and suggestions and submit them to a committee to see if we can address these issues.”

worth a read guys and gals

[kendo]

I think there could be quite a wish list here...hummm.
Kendo.

[PeteC]

Good effort and intent by the PM, but very little enthusiasm or intent to change anything by those conducting these meetings as I see it. All I read are canned answers quoting existing regulations and practices.

If what I've read elsewhere is correct, the Interior Minister has over 100 applications of people who have fully passed the PR testing, and some citizenship testing/requirements and he simply hasn't signed them making a variety of excuses when the subject comes up from those who are waiting. Regardless if that report is 100% accurate or not concerning quantity, it is 100% accurate that people are waiting who have passed, he's not signing, and he's making excuses. That says it all about what he and the ministry think of foreigners residing here permanently.

This from the above makes the mind boggle concerning 90 day reporting: "The official justified the 90 day reporting by saying it allows us (foreigners or them?) the best possible protection. If someone goes missing then we have more recent information as to their whereabouts to give to the Embassy.”

They must have thought long and hard to come up with that one. If they could get away with it everyone would be doing 30 day reporting. The real purpose is not to help the foreign resident, but to track and control him, PERIOD!

Another, if they make naturalized Thai citizens relinquish their other passport, they have to make everyone do it. This includes Thaksin whose Thai passport should have been canceled immediately when he took up citizenship in Montenegro. Unfortunately it applies to our children born here also and our dual citizen wives. The law cannot be selective. If it's the law for one, it must be for all and it is not at present it appears concerning this issue.

Other statements from the above such as a Thai wife is equal under the constitution, but...not really equal under Thai law. A retired person is meant to be retired, not do volunteer work or even work around his house. This is not even "thinking out of the box" as one Thai official stated was a goal of the conference, but simply a regurgitation of existing laws and how they interpret them to fit what they want to achieve and maintain.

The reporter/author seems to be Thai by her last name but not her first. She either purposely put a negative slant to the issues concerning the Ministry's responses, or she's reporting accurately. We have no way of knowing but I opt for the latter which tells me we will see nothing positive coming out of this dog and pony show in this lifetime or the next. Pete

[Nereus]

Good effort and intent by the PM, but very little enthusiasm or intent to change anything by those conducting these meetings as I see it. All I read are canned answers quoting existing regulations and practices. ....................................

Excellent comments, and a true insight to just what the mentality is, Pete.

Quote:"The conferences are being held to collect information and suggestions that will be sent to a committee for refinement and then sent to the Cabinet for consideration. The goal, he said, “is to provide the best possible consistent system for everyone”. ]Unquote.

The "official" then immediately proceeds to ridicule and make immediate comments about nearly every suggestion made!
His comment regarding retirees exactly shows what we are up against. If the reporting is correct, then he has absolutely no concept of "volunteer" work, as just one example.

[hhfarang]

Two points I found particularly interesting/encouraging...

I didn't know this one was law so I had a Bangkok lawyer draw up a will to protect me against losing my property should my wife pass before me... seems like I didn't have to even do that...

the spouse of a Thai person can inherit one rai of land for residential or commercial purposes or 10 rai of agricultural land if their Thai spouse dies.

The second point I would like to see implemented...

The officials said they would consider amending the length of the report and might add reporting via the internet in the future.

Reporting via internet would really make sense! I wouldn't even mind if the shortened the reporting time frame to say once a month if I could do it by internet... a win win!

[Super Joe]

Two points I found particularly interesting/encouraging... I didn't know this one was law so I had a Bangkok lawyer draw up a will to protect me against losing my property should my wife pass before me... seems like I didn't have to even do that...

the spouse of a Thai person can inherit one rai of land for residential or commercial purposes or 10 rai of agricultural land if their Thai spouse dies.

You did exactly the right thing, a foreign (or Thai) legal spouse, unless a legatee in a Will, is NOT one of the main catagories of Statutory Heirs under law and does not automatically inherit .....

Section 1603 - An estate devolves on the heirs by statutory right or by will. Heirs who are so entitled by law are called 'statutory heirs. Heirs who are entitles by will are called 'legatees'.

Section 1629 - There are only six classes of statutory heir, & subject to the provisions of Section 1630 paragragh 2, each class is entitled to inherit in the following order:
1. Direct descendents 'children', – even children by wife from another relationship - at the same % share as each surviving child
2. Parents – 50%
3. Brothers & Sisters of 'full' blood – 50%
4. Brothers & Sisters of 'half' blood – 75%
5. Grandparent – 75%
6. Uncles & Aunts – 75%
The surviving spouse is also a statutory heir, subject to the special provisions of Section 1635.

Section 1635 - The surviving spouse is entitled to the inheritance of the deceased in the class & according to the division as follows:
(1) If there is an heir according to Section 1629 (1) surviving or having representatives as the case may be, such surviving spouse is entitled to the same share as an heir in the degree of children;
(2) If there is an heir according to Section 1629 (3) & such heir is surviving or has representatives, or if in default of an heir according to Section 1629 (1) or Section 1629 (2) as the case may be, such surviving spouse is entitled to one half of the inheritance;
(3) If there is an heir according to Section 1629 (4) or (6) & such heir is surviving or has representatives, or if there is an heir according to Section 1629 (5) as the case may be, such surviving spouse is entitled to two-thirds of the inheritance;
(4) If there is no heir as specified in Section 1629, such surviving spouse is entitled to the whole inheritance

Without a Will you could find yourself sharing your house with the father of your wife's child that you help bring up, and that he hasn't seen since birth

SJ

[hhfarang]

Thanks SJ, I guess the money for the lawyer wasn't wasted after all!

[MorSage]

In regard to prcscct's " If what I've read elsewhere is correct, the Interior Minister has over 100 applications of people who have fully passed the PR testing, and some citizenship testing/requirements and he simply hasn't signed them making a variety of excuses when the subject comes up from those who are waiting. Regardless if that report is 100% accurate or not concerning quantity, it is 100% accurate that people are waiting who have passed, he's not signing, and he's making excuses. That says it all about what he and the ministry think of foreigners residing here permanently."

The number waiting / qualifying is several thousand, and the director/s tend not to like signing until just before they step down as several directors ago the director was embassingly accused of accepting bribes for granting residency and replaced. Since then directors tend to sign in their last few days to avoid the risk of such issues affecting their careers, so the delay is not about disregard for foreigners. The current director is due to step down at the end of this year so get your applications and tests done now. Good luck, living in Thailand without visa hassles is much better than with them.

[johnnyk]

Sounded like a feel-good PR exercise so gov't can say "we are listening" but little else.