Bitter feeling of foreigners to Thai officers

[sandman67]

Earth

one of the issues you seem not to rasp is that we are not Thai.

Brits, Germans, Swedes, .... we all come from countries where respect is EARNED not automatically given just because you wear a rent a uniform with a bunch of bottletops stapled to the breast.

Officials in our countries abide by and enforce the law, NOT their own personal interpretation of it. Fail to do so and our swift justice (usually) slams you in prison, or at least sees you out of your job. Enforcement jobs are NOT seen as get rich quick schemes, and bribery is a crime.

Look at our countries histories. We dont kow tow to authority, and on occasion when even the highest institution such as the king or queen, president or prime minister messes with the people, we drag them down and replace them. In Britain we have done that regularly for about 800 years. If we do that to the highest power in the land, what the hell makes you think we pay any respect to a prat in a uniform who is playing "mess with the farang"?

Back in the west we complain, and sometimes that means that things get fixed. So we learn to complain, not mutter mai pen rai.

In the past few years Thailand has been kicked about like a football by idiots in suits and uniforms who think they are doing a good job when in fact they are making Thailand into a third rate country that lags behind Vietnam and even Laos. Maybe you and your fellow nationalists should try pinning your ears back occasionally and listening to the complaints....that way maybe the stupidity will decrease and the country get back on track.

Then again.... as Buddy so rightly said

[jasonw]

Taxi for Sandman67

[richard]

SM

Having lived in Africa and seen how they strive for westernisation but still go home to their mud huts at the weekend and lived some time now in Thailand I think we all need to go back to the third world countries in about 500 years and they may be getting close

[Vital Spark]

Great post SM, and eloquently put.

This subject sometimes comes up when I'm teaching students. They bring it up, not me. The more outspoken students would agree with and echo what you say. I think that the tide is ever so slowly changing, and the younger generation are starting to ask the question 'Why?'. Mind you, if any of them get into a position of power, I wonder if they would appreciate or accept any kind of criticism or that elusive 'Why?' question...

VS

[Spitfire]

Have you been drinking Richard?

Can you give us that one in English.

[richard]

No Spitfire. I'm on the wagon this week.

Having re read my post it does seem confusing. My excuse? I'd already put together a post and my bloody line dropped so I hastily banged a new one out.

The gist of what I was trying to say was third world countries need time to evolve. If they want to become westernised there is no fast track route and it may take generations to do

Hic, hic

[Spitfire]

Ha ha, fair play!

[Super Joe]

Look at our countries histories. We dont kow tow to authority

... errr no no, ofcourse I'm not forgetting about America don't be sooo stoopid, I'm erm merely putting them to one-side for the sake of clarity and to make it easier for you to understand me, seeing as I don't speak Thai and all that. Anyway HOW DARE you bring the US into this, they are special and good friends of ours, very good. Any Brits will tell you how proud they are to kow tow to the US without question, we consider it part of our, anyway you're just jealous that Thailand doesn't have a special friend to help them decide their foreign policy and generally use them for whatever they see fit.

Back in the west we complain, and sometimes that means that things get fixed. So we learn to complain, not mutter mai pen rai. If we do that to the highest power in the land, what the hell makes you think we pay any respect to a prat in a uniform who is playing "mess with the farang"?

... yes yes, ofcourse technically we shut up and pay in the END.
But, by getting ourselves all-in-a-tizzy and creating such a fuss in the middle of a bank, or immigration office, we are making things easier for other foreigners who follow on behind us, see SEE, told you already that we learn to complain didn't I, but you're obvisssly not intelligent enuf to understand a farang like me.

So there, consider that a lesson.

[MorSage]

The more experience and knowledge of Thailand I gain, the more I realise that often when I chucked a wobbly and got a bit hot complaining about this and that because whatever it was seemed so damn easy and the incompetent infront of me just could not get the picture or was being an outright a..hole. The more I have learnt that most of the time I was merely walking myself and the other foreigners that follow me through a pile of dog shit based on my ass-u-me assumptions that I reacted to as fact and acted accordingly.

The problem being I was centering my beliefs on my predicament rather than any real understanding of the actual situation. As an example I recently saw a post where someone had interpreted the delay in granting residency once everything was already completed as disrespect for foreigners or even pressure for bribes. When the real situation is that recent directors do not sign until they are about to step down to avoid allegations of bribery interfereing with their careers. Frustrating and ineffecient YES disrespect for foreigners NO and an opportunity to expose and exploit foreigners who like to try and break the rules by offering enticements YES. The only reward for such enticements is often just not being prosecuted for bribery rather than actual favour.

Thais believe that those that keep a cool heart often win 'chi yen yen' and that not reacting to ignorant hot heads is gracious and superior. I believe they are right, but still find nyself wiping the goo off my feet, but less often than earlier in my time here.

Chucking a tantrum if on solid ground to actually teach an officer, may help those that follow but going off about some issue that is irrelevant to the real obstacle probably makes things worse for those that follow, as does stupidly offering bribes for things that often will complete at nearly the same time anyway!!

[MrPlum]

The problem being I was centering my beliefs on my predicament rather than any real understanding of the actual situation.

Good post.

I just renewed my driving licences and Visa and on both occasions it went without a hitch. I had the paperwork correct, the process was efficient and cheap. The polite, joking bureaucrats were a pleasure to deal with. No-one asked me for 'tea money' nor did I offer any. Contrast this with what happens in the UK. Or even at the British Embassy... 2600 thb for a standard letter... give me the Thai system anyday.

I don't see it as my place to 'teach' the Thais a damn thing. It's their country and I'm a guest in it and grateful to be so. What's the point of abusing a low level functionary who risks getting into hot water for pushing incomplete or incorrect paperwork through the system because we didn't get it right the first time? If a foreigner got angry and started to tell the DVLA in the UK how rubbish their system was, he would probably be given short shrift and we'd nod in approval. I think the Thai employees are very tolerant. What do you expect from them? Flowers?

Corruption has always existed. It's just as bad if not worse in the west. Have you forgotten the 'rip-off Britain' campaign? People have been brainwashed into thinking the Police are there to serve the public when they are there to protect the ruling elite and their property from us barbarians. That the Taxman is there to help us work out our tax code when they are there to pick our pockets under threat of going to jail. That CEO's can 'grant' themselves obscene bonuses for shedding workers. That 'campaign contributions' aren't bribes. That bailing out the banker bandits then stiffing us for the bill is 'democratic'. These crooks have picked my pocket far more than any Thai bureaucrat or policeman, who has to pay for his own uniform, ever will.

[mabubba]

It's interesting to see (firsthand and by reading about fellow posters) how non-visiting Westerners are treated by beaurocracies in 'non' first world countries. I think the ex-pat life is a reverse of the world's normal immigration patterns. I grew up with the notion that people from 'non' first world countries wanted to (primarely) come West to seek a better life.

I envision myself as an ex-pat in the future, Thailand calls me. The experiences noted in the posts above are the same types of situations often encountered by people emigrating to the West. I think in general we (US/Europe) do a good job handling newcomers. The US was built on them:) And, we are doing ok now even after 9/11 changed lots of things. We have had more practice at it though.

In the past, very few people looked to emigrate from the West and settle in 'non' first world countries. The modern age (post industrial revolution) has allowed for the very rapid development of these countries to the point where we can literally build 'Western-type' enclaves almost anywhere in short order (less than a decade). These enclaves will invariably clash with local cultures. So many of us carry our cultures with us on our travels that we can't comprehend different ways of thinking or doing similar tasks.

I look forward to contributing (in a healthy way) to the mixing of cultures!

[charlesh]

If earth is who he/she says he she is then it does highlight some of the attitudinal issues that are hampering the LOS.

An observation I have with LOS is that we do not have a conduit to the highest or dare I say it any high power in the land.

The idea of equity and level playing field here is somewhat different. If earth is a world traveller then he/she would realise that even a visitor in Oz does have the opportunity to be treated equally and in the event of a complaint at least a process will be initiated. I can't say a satisfactory outcome will be achieved as the spin doctors are everywhere now and the fear of litigation tends to colour responses.
Throwing wobblers is bad manners and poor taste IMO but totally understandable in situations where people hide behind cultural paradigms and ignore or don't listen to your concerns as a human being (not Thai-Chinese, interesting self description! or expect special treatment because you have lucre in your pockets).

[Earth]

You just can't compare or want one country to be the same with another country like Charlesh mention to Oz. (still thinking that will you see it? to be like what you want to be in your life time!!....Have a look at Iran this day in main topic--- good example-How is it compare to your country!! Think about it. You will find happiness in your life...

However, do hope some of you inform persons or organisation that concerned!! Many channels- also nowaday Facebook to Aphisit V. also available, apart from informing to the real top one, what you met? what you find? how to help? You will make yourself very useful to country you stay

Not just muttter, it couldn't help.

[Takiap]

When staying in my own country, I avoided dealing with officials as much as possible. I did the same when living in the UK, and I do the same here. The less you have to do with them, the better.

Also, in Thailand there's a huge "status" thing about working in the government. Government employees do not see themselves as being civil servants, but instead, they see themselves as being vitally important, similar in a way, to the Bangkok elite. This line of thinking can only be changed by the Thais as a nation, and us as expats, are merely outsiders looking in.

As I've said before, I live here because of the way Thailand is. If this country was a photocopy of the other western countries, I for one would not be here. Sure it can be frustrating at times, but then again, it's all over a few minutes later and life carries on.

[poosmate]

It is as difficult a job for us to try and change the Thai way as it would be for a part time agency worker to change company policy.
Earth, as a full time employee of Thai.co should, along with your other workers try to make conditions better for us part timers without a contract