Life in Thailand Poll No.2 (Financial discrimination)

[Spitfire]

Sorry Pete, been out this afternoon trying to sort out a future house and thought that it might be good starting point for a new poll as your young one has pulled out my name.

Basically, I still find this one of the most annoying things here, not just the duel pricing system and the attitude behind it, but when it comes to a lot of other things too like a high street bank will only lend a foreigner 70% mortgage if he works in Thailand and only 50% if works outside Thailand, regardless of the fact that if you were Thai on the same salary then they would be throwing money/credit cards at you etc.

I have to put down 300k, and may have a Thai guarantor, to buy a brand new pickup truck, whereas the dude that works as a primary school teacher puts down 40k and only earns 13k a month.

Yes, it can be afforded but I just find that it niggles me sometimes.

A friend of mine went into a BBK Bank office recently and basically said "What do I have to do to get a credit card here as have lived and worked here now for 7 years?" Their answer was, "Put lots of money in an account and leave it in there."

The local authorities attitudes are very anti anyone under 50.

The argument that it keeps the garbage out and away is only half true as that seems to have failed in many cases/places.

Or, on the other hand, do you agree with the setup and it's implications to all and the perceptions many end up having of the way it is in this section?

OK, suppose it doesn't matter for the rich, but if you are that then try to think as if in someone else's shoes, or it was you son.

Now, I know age differences exist between the posters but say your piece and vote folks.

[kendo]

Hi Spitfire,
I would love to back heal the UK for a life in Thailand but I can't see anyway of having a sustainable life before I get my company pension, everything is so stacked against you.
Kendo.

[margaretcarnes]

I've gone for 'other' because I think the benefits to Thailand do vary.
Hiking prices for tourists for example I can excuse, because they probably don't know any better, and probably don't care anyway. The 2 weeks holiday in the sun is a time to splash out and the more they splash the more the locals benefit.
But for expats, working or retired, it's a different story. I can understand some minimum income levels being set for example, but the issue of wanting to keep out the 'riff raff' could just as easily be solved by the requirement for a flight price home to be lodged securely somewhere.
Working expats are contributing to the country anyway, as are retirees in their own way. Both have to pay for visas, transport, day to day living costs, medical care and housing.
And on the housing front, (an issue in HH at the moment for sure) I dislike the way Thais expect to pay much less for property than farang do. Some expat property owners have no choice than to sell at Thai price if they are desperate to move - and the Thais know it.
Maybe that is a vote by default in favour of the Russian invasion? If all nationalities were treated equally I guess that wouldn't matter. But they aren't.

[lindosfan1]

If I wanted something, I went browsing. Then go out and tell the wife what I wanted. Aways a big money difference in our favour.

[hollister]

I find the wording of the question rather strange. If it asked whether it disturbs me I'd answer yes.

[Spitfire]

I find the wording of the question rather strange.

Not sure why.......but I'd take a wild guess and 'have a stab' at the fact that it's like it is here because the Thais think it is to their benefit/our hindrance and perhaps have reservations in the area of trust of "aliens", I hesitate to call it downright "something else" but there will be those out there that agree with that too.

Yes though, disturbance may well probably be the end result for those of non indigenous persuasion, and that may not necessarily be good for the country or not......which, I guess, is the point of the question..........unless, of course, I'm assuming too much.

[lindosfan1]

Having lived in several countries charging tourists more seems to be a standard practise. How do the Thais tell a tourist from a local. Here in Greece one they realised I lived here I got the local price, not the tourist price. I remember in the UK the Isle of Wight bus company put the fares up in the summer and down in the winter but that hit locals as well as tourists. As for houses and cars I think the attitude is if they can afford to move here and buy our houses and cars we will charge them more. The only thing to do there is to walk away telling them you will pay the Thai price. If everybody did that I think it would work.

[PeteC]

I think the root of it concerning financing still lies in Thailand's age old distrust of anyone not Thai. That history and mindset has seeped into everything here. You have to remember that less than 100 years ago the average Thai didn't even know a world existed outside of Thailand. I'm sure there are still a few million today who know that something exists on the other side of Thai borders, but they're not really sure what. Why that thinking and lack of education was nurtured can only be attributed to control.

Yes it's true that we're now dealing with educated bank managers who know how the world works, but we're still not Thai. Smarter person this bank manager, but still the same embedded mindset.

Anyone on the planet who has ever bought anything on credit has a credit report, which should also contain the person's entire employment history. Thai banks can access these but I'm willing to bet that they don't when a foreigner applies for financing. All they're concerned about are the funds the person has built up in a Thai bank, and how secure his job is here in the country. His other history means nothing, not even when it comes to character. Having a Thai spouse could actually work against him as once again we have a mindset of what kind of Thai girl marries a foreigner? It's chalk and cheese and will never work, then we're stuck with a non-performing loan as the woman will never find employment adequate enough to make the payments.

The only solution is time, another 20-50-100 years, I don't know. Pete

[PeteC]

.....and, if you want to call it racist, I wouldn't disagree. It's not racist in terms of color IMO but in terms of paranoia. I think Thais lack self confidence and are scared to death that they can't really compete on the world stage, and the country could be swallowed up if they loosen up. Rather than seeing it as an opportunity, they see it as a threat. Yes, Thai exports are now the backbone of the economy, but it's small scale. How many Thai companies have gone multi-national on a large scale, I think less than a dozen and I bet those are all Thai-Chinese blood. See my other post about looking inward. I guess you could call it a classic Catch-22 in their way of thinking. Pete

[poosmate]

I think if we as foreigners had the same immigration status in the UK or any other country we would be looked upon unfavourably when it came to credit. I could not see a "alien" getting a good credit score.A bank or finance company needs to ensure it is repaid or has security. Someone on a temporary visa without anything secure except maybe cash is not a good risk.
The Thai price for houses The market and negotiating skill dictates the property price not race unless it is a low cost government housing scheme for local residents. Farangs forced to accept Thai prices? Where? Maybe a farrang who wishes to sell a house but cannot attract a buyer foreign or Thai may end up selling to a Thai at a realistic price.

[margaretcarnes]

I agree with a lot of your sentiments Pete - but I don't think the average Thai is paranoid about foreigners. Quite the opposite IMO they have an arrogance, or at least a confidence, in Thailands ability to get by without outside interference.
It's one of the few countries never to have been colonised. They simply don't seem to see any need to drag themselves into the 21st century and to be honest they get by in their own sweet way.
In fact if it weren't for the effort and foresight of some noteable monarchs they wouldn't even be where they are now.
It puts concerned farang in a catch 22 situation really because, bar a few moans, we love Thailand the way it is. But at the same time we deplore the ongoing state of its' education system and other fundamentals. We see the inequality and the class divides which increasingly contrast poorly with our own countries. But should we turn it all around and look at whether our own countries are developing too fast?

[johnnyk]

I would say that inequality and class divides are pretty rampant in the west, too. America has the greatest economic gap between top and bottom. One per cent own 40% of the economy.
Class is a taboo subject, of course. Perhaps because outside western Europe few are aware of it. But it certainly exists. Anybody here met a Rockefeller lately? We don't belong to their clubs and never will.
The Thais are certainly insular and xenophobic but many other people are as well.
Margaret, re your point about dodgy expats having plane fare lodged somwehere, I'd say the problem with that is it allows the "dodgers" in country and that leads to how to get them out. The 800K bhat requirement keeps many of them out in the first place (prevention better than cure, perhaps).

[margaretcarnes]

I think if we as foreigners had the same immigration status in the UK or any other country we would be looked upon unfavourably when it came to credit. I could not see a "alien" getting a good credit score.A bank or finance company needs to ensure it is repaid or has security. Someone on a temporary visa without anything secure except maybe cash is not a good risk.
The Thai price for houses The market and negotiating skill dictates the property price not race unless it is a low cost government housing scheme for local residents. Farangs forced to accept Thai prices? Where? Maybe a farrang who wishes to sell a house but cannot attract a buyer foreign or Thai may end up selling to a Thai at a realistic price.

That's a valid point - if any country insists on applying it's own credit rating system to an alien it's up to them. The alien starts from scratch.

Property wise though Poosmate are you saying that house prices in HH are artificially inflated for the farang market? Heaven forbid - wash your mouth out! But you are probably right of course. Plus the fact that many expats buying properties off plan want expensive Western fittings in the first place.
The type of properties I was referring to in my earlier post were the condos, which can already have a high number of Thai owners anyway so aren't particularly 'overpriced' for sale farang to Thai.
Moral of the story? Back to my ongoing gripe that there are simply too many new properties now, and too many expats who simply spend too much on housing and can't afford to take a loss on it longer term. In fact what Thais look for when buying a property is probably worthy of it's own topic.

[dtaai-maai]

I think if we as foreigners had the same immigration status in the UK or any other country we would be looked upon unfavourably when it came to credit. I could not see a "alien" getting a good credit score.A bank or finance company needs to ensure it is repaid or has security. Someone on a temporary visa without anything secure except maybe cash is not a good risk.

The difference being that after 5, 8, 10, however many years on a work permit you would qualify for permanent residence in most countries. Not here.
You want to buy an asset. You apply for a loan. The bank says no, you have no assets as security. Bit of a dilemma. But surely the asset you're buying is its own security?

.....and, if you want to call it racist, I wouldn't disagree. It's not racist in terms of color IMO but in terms of paranoia. I think Thais lack self confidence and are scared to death that they can't really compete on the world stage, and the country could be swallowed up if they loosen up. Rather than seeing it as an opportunity, they see it as a threat.

I'd go along with that in general terms, though unsure about the reasons.

I think the root of it concerning financing still lies in Thailand's age old distrust of anyone not Thai. That history and mindset has seeped into everything here. You have to remember that less than 100 years ago the average Thai didn't even know a world existed outside of Thailand. I'm sure there are still a few million today who know that something exists on the other side of Thai borders, but they're not really sure what. Why that thinking and lack of education was nurtured can only be attributed to control.

... I don't think the average Thai is paranoid about foreigners. Quite the opposite IMO they have an arrogance, or at least a confidence, in Thailands ability to get by without outside interference.
It's one of the few countries never to have been colonised. They simply don't seem to see any need to drag themselves into the 21st century and to be honest they get by in their own sweet way.

Pete was talking about Thailand rather than the average Thai, so I think you're both talking on similar lines, and I agree.

As for Thailand never being colonised; the nation may well believe this to be significant (leaving aside the obvious and total humiliation by the Japanese 70 years ago that few Thais know anything about), but it seems to me that this is mainly because 150-200 years ago they ceded huge amounts of their territory and persuaded the European powers and the USA that they were more use as an independent state than as another colony. Militarily, its greatest weapons at that time were its lack of open-ocean borders, malaria and the mountains this side of Burma.

I suppose we inevitably look at things from our own point of view, but that seems to me unlikely to produce any results. We're simply not important enough to matter. The whole question of Thailand and its attitude is fascinating, and we'll be talking about it forever. There'll never be a Eureka moment when someone suddenly sees the answer. I've tried to say this before and usually wound up offending someone, but I don't care how long you've lived here, how many Thai wives or boyfriends you've had or how much Thai you speak, you'll never really know what's going on. It's great fun trying though, and I intend to spend the rest of my life working on the problem!

As for the question... I'm sure Spitfire knows that it's way too broad, but it has certainly led to some very interesting discussion. I'll give it a 'no' vote.

[hhfarang]

I marked "Not Sure" because I don't think most tourists notice or even care about the dual pricing. It's only us expats that seem to get upset by it and I don't think there are enough of us to matter to Thailand.

As for classes, this exists in every country. There is and will always be a big divide between the few rich and the many middle class and poor. This was evident even in Communist countries in which the whole point was to make everyone equal.... it did make 99% equal (poor) while the corrupt 1% held the power and wealth.

In a Capitalist society, you are what you make of yourself. If you are smart, industrious, and energetic, you can overcome the class divide, or get to the top class. If you're a layabout you will stay at the bottom. If you've got a reasonable head on your shoulders but no Einstein and don't mind a bit of work you can stay solidly in the middle and have a comfortable life. Yes, there are exceptions as some people are truly unlucky or just get bad breaks through no fault of their own, but I think if you think ahead a bit you can make or control your own luck. I avoided getting laid off while it was happening all around me for the last ten years of my career by making smart transfers and career moves at the right times and I'm certainly no genius.