Where Do Monks Sit In The Foodchain?

[Big Boy]

This is a question that has been at the back of my mind for sometime. This is not an anti-Buddhism post - of all the religions I've experienced, it seems to be quite a good choice. If somebody wants to start an anti-Buddhism thread please do so, but don't polute this thread.

Most of my experience has been with Monks in the UK, but of course, I've seen what goes on in Thailand as well. Examples of what I've seen include:

- Overseas travel - they are always first in line for a complimentary upgrade on Thai Inter.
- Food - I've seen families go short to ensure the Monk gets his food.
- Money - they get regular handouts. Handouts in the UK tend to start at £10, and some people give hundreds.
- Cleaning - certainly in the UK, there is never a shortage of Thai expats prepared to become a nun for a period, and spend that period keeping the temple clean/cooking
- Respect - as soon as a Monk enters the room, people tend to bow, give wai's etc. They command people's attention, and what they say is taken as being correct.
- Fear - they seem to equate religion in the middle ages in the UK. They seem feared by the population.
- I could go on, but people must get the idea.

From what I can see, these guys come from poor backgrounds - is this correct, or do they come from all society's? If so, are there different classes of Monk?

They are highly respected for their knowledge, but where does this knowledge come from? Does wearing an orange/brown robe suddenly make you worldly wise?

Certainly in the UK, you rarely see a skinny Monk. If the Monk is skinny, you can bet they've only been in the UK a few weeks. They tend to do very little other than worship Buddha. If they visit eg somebody's home, the owner of that house will lay on a spread fit for a king. This is obviously having the result of making them all overweight.

Now, I would guess that the average Monk is considered to be at least middle class. Does he maintain status if he chooses to give up the cloth, or does he simply go back to where he came from? If they do, is it this that makes them remain a Monk, or is it simply dedication to Buddhism?

Sorry for asking so many questions in such a short space, but these are all things that keep crossing my mind.

[Bamboo Grove]

I think they come from all walks of life. As with other religions there must be those who enter the monk (priest)hood just for moneys (or good lifes in this case) sake. In Theravada Buddhism monks are the highest form of life and only they can leave the wheel of life and go to Nirvana. They give laymen a chance to do merit and thus gain a better life in their next incarnation. So giving to the monks will earn you merit for your next life. That's why, I think, so many are willing to give monks all the things they should not be given. Monks should not care for the earthly things but if they are not truly devoted, they will accept the things that bring the life of ease.

[johnnyk]

In the Thai foodchain I think only HM is above.

[kendo]

I have seen family and other around my wife's village do the monk thing 3 months to 1 year or what ever they choose.
My brother in law done a 3 month stint last year but now back to normal life running his little pop shop he really enjoyed it and has told me he will do it again.

He stayed at a large temple in Ko takian so when we where on holiday we went to this temple with him my mrs and two step sons and we where treated very well, this temple was very busy as it was a sunday but the monks where very friendly and not really that reserved we spent about 3 hours there doing some ritual where all our heads wher linked together with Knitting wool .

One thing that always suprises me is some of them can speak very good english at this temple near Prasat 25 km's from the Cam border two of the monks one oldish the other in his twenty's held a good conversation with me in english as they had both been to the UK.

Now this whole way of leading your life thing and becoming a monk you will be well fed respected and lead a life where people will anything for you and have the time to find your piece within study etc, but there is also another side to all this, and some people might not like this, but becoming a monk is also a very big way of saying sorry you may wai a monk and he could be a robber, x drug addict, or a murder some people see it as a way of appology or a way of rehabilitating them selves some Thai men become monks and drift in and out of the cloth all there lives.

I have another brother in law that became a monk for a year, after fighting with two men and he was the only one that servived so he done his stint as a monk and now has a clear conscience and has paid his debt to Budda.

Very interesting stuff Big Boy great thread.

Kendo.

[dtaai-maai]

You're probably much better off asking Mrs BB about all this, rather than a bunch of heathen farang, however long we've been here and however much we think we know.

Having said that, on the odd occasions I've spoken to Mrs D-M about something Buddha-related I haven't really had much sense. I think a lot of it is input that comes with mother's milk, it's instinct as much as anything else. The Thai version of prayer or worship probably differs to varying degrees from other versions, but there seems to be a lot of asking for favours and/or good luck here (not so different from many Christian prayers?) and buying merit (similar to "confession", but more expensive?).
There's also a lot of good old pre-Buddhist paganism tossed in for good effect.

Monks feared? I wouldn't say so. Respected certainly. But there are as many scandals surrounding Buddhist monks here as there are surrounding catholic priests elsewhere.

Food, money, cleaning, etc. Well, do the priests of any religion go out and work for a living? A few, maybe, but not many. Is there a born-again Buddhist channel extorting money from the gullible masses? Maybe not quite yet. I knew the Bishop of Winchester (about 3-4 bishops ago) - mad as a hatter, rich as Croesus and lived in a palace, for crying out loud. I doubt he ever did much laundry.

I met a monk on the sleeper going down to Penang some years back. I was having a crafty roll-up in the corridor and he was puffing on a pipe. He was a crinkly-eyed, avuncular sort of fellow, reminded me of the Dalai Lama. We had a lovely chat about all sorts of things, but nothing to do with religion.

Yes, there are all sorts of rules about behaviour toward monks, but I doubt it's all that different from the way Catholics are supposed to behave towards their monks and nuns - and some of them aren't even allowed to talk!

Of course they're not worldly wise, grasshopper. They're like anyone else. And I dare say a lot of their mystique is simply learned by rote - many of them probably have little idea what they're chanting half the time.
Personally I can take 'em or leave 'em.

Mrs D-M takes it all quite seriously, and I have no problem with that. She'll disappear once in a blue moon at the crack of dawn to go the temple with a mate and 'tam boon' - that's fine with me, and I wouldn't dream of interfering or taking the mickey.

Religions? They have generally done much more harm than good, but all things considered Buddhism is probably not so terrible.

[Big Boy]

I can relate to the good English bit. Here in Bristol we used to have 2 monks - both studying at Bristol University (under a Buddhist scholarship). Their English was almost perfect. One returned to Thailand, and is now living a normal (non Monk) life. The other is now working out of the Kings Bromley temple.

Also, when you say some may be saying sorry, I can also relate to that in a slightly different way. Many of the Thais who go into the temple for a couple of weeks are doing it to say sorry. Only recently we knew somebody who was feeling guilty for leaving her boyfriend - she did 2 weeks at the temple.

dtaai-maai, Mrs BB has borrowed SJ's rose tinted glasses where Buddha is concerned. Any answer I got would be significantly biased.

Monks feared? - There is the, "You must give this or else something will happen scenario." As an example, another friend who died recently had to give Buddha thousands of pounds before she died to ensure she reached Nirvana (if that's the right phrase).

I met a monk on the sleeper going down to Penang some years back. I was having a crafty roll-up in the corridor and he was puffing on a pipe. He was a crinkly-eyed, avuncular sort of fellow, reminded me of the Dalai Lama. We had a lovely chat about all sorts of things, but nothing to do with religion.

There was a Monk in Swindon 2 weeks ago (on a 4 week pilgimage from Udon) who was a heavy smoker. His excuse was that this Monk had been made out of people

[kendo]

When we are at our house up north, a monk who is a friend of the family always comes to our house to see us, he always wants a bottle of water and a smoke the first time he left with my lighter, i thought mistake but since then he has done that another two times.

I also got told off by a female monk at Monkey Mountain, we had bought a couple of bags of nuts for the monkeys done the tourist bit, the wife told me that she will buy a couple more bags so i said "enough love plenty of other people will buy some" next thing this Thai female monk dressed in white said "the monkeys are always hungry dont be shy to buy more nuts" now i was really shocked as she spoke in a very strong way in very good english just did not expect that.

Kendo.

[johnnyk]

kendo,
when are you going into the temple?
you could be in for years, so many sins to expiate!

[margaretcarnes]

I see the monks in the LOS as providing a kind of community service as well as their religious role. Yes people give to them - but as far as the alms of food every morning goes it never seems to be anything much beyond rice - probably no more than people can really afford (except on special Buddha days of course.)
In return the Wats provide shelter when needed. They lend out furniture when needed. The monks carry out the essential blessings of new houses, and release the spirits from the houses where people have died.
Many of the Wats open their grounds for regular markets, and are often peaceful, well planted places with seats and water which provide much needed rest spots.
Unfortunately HH main Wat just provides parking spaces and doesn't give a very good impression of what a Wat should be IMO, and there is a general reluctance to maintain Wats in a decent condition. Maybe not so much a reluctance as a 'why bother?' attitude, which is a shame.
I don't feel qualified to pass any judgement on the way Thai people treat monks in general. They believe - they give - they certainly receive something in return and must feel they get value for money! Personally I've no problem with the monks either. I'd much rather see monks around collecting alms than have Jehovahs Witnesses knocking on my door that's for sure - but quite why I would also give alms when appropriate is a mystery - it just seems the right thing to do.

[johnnyk]

I love the rural wats in particular, they are the anchor of the village in many respects. They provide safe haven and a centre to the community. The grandfather of an old TGF is head monk at Wat Groen Gathin in Lopburi province. Up to about age 45 he was a huge hell-raiser then "got religion". Now about 85 years old he has built a huge wat with park around it. With money raised from visitor donations the village now has a new 2-floor school replacing the old 2-room shack and a new clinic with full-time doctor and half-time dentist. He has made merit for himself and given a lot to his community. Only a monk could have done it, a politician would have stolen the money.

LP Pian and visitor.jpg (26.74 KiB) Viewed 1030 times

[Terry]

You're probably much better off asking Mrs BB about all this, rather than a bunch of heathen farang, however long we've been here and however much we think we know.

Having said that, on the odd occasions I've spoken to Mrs D-M about something Buddha-related I haven't really had much sense. I think a lot of it is input that comes with mother's milk, it's instinct as much as anything else. The Thai version of prayer or worship probably differs to varying degrees from other versions, but there seems to be a lot of asking for favours and/or good luck here (not so different from many Christian prayers?) and buying merit (similar to "confession", but more expensive?).
There's also a lot of good old pre-Buddhist paganism tossed in for good effect.

Monks feared? I wouldn't say so. Respected certainly. But there are as many scandals surrounding Buddhist monks here as there are surrounding catholic priests elsewhere.

Food, money, cleaning, etc. Well, do the priests of any religion go out and work for a living? A few, maybe, but not many. Is there a born-again Buddhist channel extorting money from the gullible masses? Maybe not quite yet. I knew the Bishop of Winchester (about 3-4 bishops ago) - mad as a hatter, rich as Croesus and lived in a palace, for crying out loud. I doubt he ever did much laundry.

I met a monk on the sleeper going down to Penang some years back. I was having a crafty roll-up in the corridor and he was puffing on a pipe. He was a crinkly-eyed, avuncular sort of fellow, reminded me of the Dalai Lama. We had a lovely chat about all sorts of things, but nothing to do with religion.

Yes, there are all sorts of rules about behavior toward monks, but I doubt it's all that different from the way Catholics are supposed to behave towards their monks and nuns - and some of them aren't even allowed to talk!

Of course they're not worldly wise, grasshopper. They're like anyone else. And I dare say a lot of their mystique is simply learned by rote - many of them probably have little idea what they're chanting half the time.
Personally I can take 'em or leave 'em.

Mrs D-M takes it all quite seriously, and I have no problem with that. She'll disappear once in a blue moon at the crack of dawn to go the temple with a mate and 'tam boon' - that's fine with me, and I wouldn't dream of interfering or taking the mickey.

Religions? They have generally done much more harm than good, but all things considered Buddhism is probably not so terrible.

Totally agree DM - could have written that myself!

The one thing that I would add is that being a cynic (and I admit it) - I find it very hard to accept the commercialism of ANY religion. Whilst a lot of good is done in the name of religion, so a lot of money is made, and often there are leading religious figures (monks in the case of Buddhism) behind it.

Take a look at Wat Huai Monkol out over the byepass.

Yes a beautiful place to stroll around the grounds, but ATMs everywhere so that the devotees can drain their bank balance in the name of merit?
Then you get the convoys of 'VIP' buses bringing hordes of religious tourists to fill the coffers
They even built a flyover on the bypass to deal with the traffic going there.

I think that the Lord Buddha must be turning in his grave at what as been and is being done in his name.

[richard]

In my Isaan village the temple is the focal point of the village and surrounds

A place of worship, take care of the elderly, teach the young, liaise with the elders to police the village

The monks are very approachable. When I go to the temple because of my ailment a chair is brought to me and at the end of the ceremony the head monk always comes over for a chat

They also mingle with the villagers outside of the temple often leading processions either by truck or on foot mingling with the crowd. I was luck enough to get invited for a lift on this occasion

They attend festivals and visit people in their homes When they come to see me it's usually a packet of fags gone

Rocket festival party (5) (512 x 384).jpg (60.72 KiB) Viewed 986 times

My biggest faux pas was one songkran I was sat on a tailgate throwing water as one does and was told that the monks mingling with the crowd could also have water thrown at them. Me in true Yorkshire fashion took a bucket of water and poured it over the head monk. The crowd were in stitches, the wife was fuming. So I hasten towards him with a high wai and he grinned, put his hands on my shoulders and wispered 'You are a farang and still learning'

Guess village monkism is more relaxed than city and urban life

[johnnyk]

...he grinned, put his hands on my shoulders and wispered 'You are a farang and still learning'

Tolerance and understanding. Lovely.
BTW, Buddhism is the only major religion that does not proselytize and seek to convert. Rather than spew bullshite it offers guidelines for right conduct.

[hhfarang]

^ Yes, I agree. My missus is fairly religious, in that she prays daily and gets up at 4 a.m. to cook to feed the passing monks (not every day, but at least once a week) and reads a lot of Buddhist material, but has never tried to push it onto me and I have never disagreed or criticized her practice of her faith so it is not an issue with us.

When she wants to go to wat to pray and offer gifts, she goes to a small jungle one off soi 112 where there is only one monk living the true monk life. The wat consists of an open hut with a modest Buddha statue and a little shack where he lives. She usually goes with here friends, but I've taken her out there a couple of times (requiring a high clearance vehicle, and if raining would require 4 wheel drive) and it amazes me how a truly devout monk lives.

[traveller2]

Good story Richard and nice photos. I must remember not to douse a monk during Songkran (or any other time).

I was told by a Thai friend that most Thai men become monks for at least a short time, its tradition. A man who has been a monk is more likely to find a wife than one who hasnt, as they have learnt and experienced abstainance and learnt true humility, which is what the Thai women look for. At least thats what I was told.
I was also told that things are changing as the western cultures become more apparent in Thailand.

Im not Buddist and I dont really consider myself to be religious, however, if I was religious, I think there are far worse religions to follow and like Buddism in Thailand as it fits so nicely with the country's traditions and way of life which are all inter-twined together.