Take a deep breath, smile, pay up, walk away and stay alive

[Big Boy]

all it takes for evil to thrive is for good men to say and do nothing....

A very good point in that if you let them get away with, it will encourage them to continue with the violence when your back is turned. Sneaking up on you when you're least expecting it is obviously the coward's way out. However, it doesn't matter how big we may be, if attacked with a gun, knife or club from behind, there is a very good chance that a serious injury will be sustained.

It's a bit like terrorism - they will not attack you head on, but will be covert in their actions.

Having read this thread to date, there seems to be 2 possible answers ie:

- Let another Thai do all of the negotiation. However, this can be difficult if you're paying a Thai to do a job that you are competent in such as Paul Ayling. The other problem is that if the Thai is like my wife, then the Thai might take the side of the tradesman in an attempt to save face all around.

- Learn the language to a standard that you can negotiate on a level playing field - obviously too hard for many of us.

[hhfarang]

That's one problem with living here as a foreigner. I have found myself feeling cheated, short changed, or ripped off (however you want to put it) in my dealings with most of the service providers I've used in eight years, including building contractors, sub contractors, handy men, laborers, and pretty much any service from any company, shop, or independent worker.

Of all the services or workers (thousands probably if you count all the work we've had done concerning construction and maintenance), I could count the one's I'd recommend to others on the fingers of both hands (maybe toes too, but no more than that ). The rest have all let me down and left me feeling like they took advantage of me.

I guess if you have reasonable expectations of good service and quality, you either have to get used to this feeling, lower those expectations, or move to another country.

[Coldmike]

I'm sure most of us feel the same about not trusting Thai contractors ( I have the same feeling in the US, but to a lesser degree). Part of the problem is they don't trust us either.

Many Thai blue-collar types consider farangs as rich a-holes. Unfortunately too many farangs actually are, and perpetuate the image. They might think we are always trying to exploit and take advantage of them. Treat them with respect and be fair and try to be nice (?) Small friendly gestures and any conversation you're capable of (without your 'translator') can go a long way to building a good relationship which should help avoid nasty disputes later on. This seems to work for me with work I've had done, but I've also had to get used to the maddening work schedules and seemingly ridiculous amounts of time it takes to complete simple projects

That being said, crooks are crooks and in those situations you're likely to lose one way or another. Remember, unlike most of Europe and US, life is pretty cheap in LOS. Be careful.

[Takiap]

I personally agree with the original post. With that said, I myself have never been in a difficult situation involving Thai contractors, All the Thai contractors we used, including the chap who built out house, were very pleasant, and were more than willing to make changes which we felt were necessary. On the other hand, those contractors would more than likely say the same about my wife and I, considering that we didn't pull them up for every tiny thing they did wrong. Like they say, one hand washes the other hand.

We get Thai prices when we want work done, so naturally we can't be too picky, and I think this is were some Farang go wrong. They want rock bottom Thai prices, but then they expect top quality workmanship.

I've lost count of the number of times I've heard Farang complaining about the haphazard way cables are left in the roof space of their homes, or complaining because their plumbing. Bangkok is full of qualified contractors who would be more than happy to do your projects to high standards, but of course that costs a whole lot more, so we use inexperienced local labor instead.


Anyway, back to topic.......................It certainly is not worth risking you life for the sake of a few thousand baht, no matter how cheated you feel. We're dealing with people who think very differently to us, and they also have a tendency to act without thinking. Evidence of this can be seen countless times every single day.

I don't look down on the Thais in any way, and I don't consider us to be better than them, but we are most certainly different, and anyone who can't see that is most obviously blind and out of touch with reality.


Lastly, when dealing with worker disputes, just remember that anything you say or do could very well be smoldering in their minds, and once the Lao Kao kicks in......well, I'll leave it at that.

[advocate]

Jaime,

my apologies as I did not mean to insinuate that you are violent. I was merely pointing out that violence and insults against the Thais will not be tolerated by them. No matter their size, they will get you back.

[STEVE G]

We get Thai prices when we want work done, so naturally we can't be too picky, and I think this is were some Farang go wrong. They want rock bottom Thai prices, but then they expect top quality workmanship.

I would tend to agree with this and I think the best approach is to try and set a benchmark for the work required based on a past job that the contractor has completed so that there is a frame of reference for any dispute about quality.

[Super Joe]

I have found myself feeling cheated, short changed, or ripped off in my dealings with most of the service providers I've used in eight years, including building contractors, sub contractors, handy men, laborers, and pretty much any service from any company, shop, or independent worker. The rest have all let me down and left me feeling like they took advantage of me.

Pfff, that nothing HHF. Think how your eventual buyers will feel, they're having to fork out about twice the amount you did aren't they

SJ

[TingTongJohn]

The sad thing is that this has alot to do with Thai culture and saving face. You have to be careful in this regard. It goes from a student in class being embarassed about a failing grade and his Familes status to a worker and what he sees as slight in his work being questioned or a Thai police officer in a bar after work. This is where things get out of hand. A bussiness deal that gets spins out of control where the Thai partner in his mind must react to a question of his abilties. Now is the scary part. Not the courts or that course but in more of aspect getting the stronger postion. If that means hurting or worse so be as long as they save face. A frightening concept in the least. Disagree if you may and let me know why please..This is IMHO..

TTJ

[advocate]

I don't think the violence is to save face but instead is revenge for their perception that you have caused them to lose face by insulting them.

I do agree that questioning the work can be seen as insulting if not done with respect.

The Thai way seems to be not to question the quality of the work but say instead that the work is not yet complete. They like to call this "detail". ie detailing the work.

[TingTongJohn]

I don't think the violence is to save face but instead is revenge for their perception that you have caused them to lose face by insulting them.

I do agree that questioning the work can be seen as insulting if not done with respect.

The Thai way seems to be not to question the quality of the work but say instead that the work is not yet complete. They like to call this "detail". ie detailing the work.

I agree in all aspects in what you said. One small note if you do find someone whos work you like remember them as I have found this group is small and are few and far between. A good example of this is we had a new tankless show system put in recently. The person who did the install and wireing was excellent and also corrected a number of defects he found in our home from the builders.(i.E the fusebox and its grounding fault system) And he did it and then he never even billed us for the extra work. I am kicking myself now as we can now not find his card as I would pass it on to you. Stay tuned I hope I can find it.
TTJ

[kendo]

I have had a run in with a very drunk Thai man in Hua Hin, about 5 years ago even to this day he remembers it, god knows how he was totaly trashed but he still give's me the evil looks so i look back and my wife gets very annoyed about it.

Up in Surin there was a young lad that was attacked near to me i did hear through the grape vine that he had been a bit of a jack the lad with a few locals acting the big man here's an extract of why you should not argue, take the piss or wrong a Thai in anyway.

Aussie Dies After Thai Street Attack

An Australian tourist who died after being attacked in Thailand will be buried there tomorrow, farewelled by his pregnant Thai girlfriend and Adelaide family.

Andrew Oake, 28, had been holidaying in Prasat, near Surin in north-eastern Thailand, for two months with his girlfriend, Som, who is six months pregnant.

About four weeks ago the pair were travelling between villages when they were set upon by two men on motorbikes.

Som ran for help while Mr Oake was slashed on the arms and head with a machete in what might have been a failed robbery.

His father, Roy Oake, said his son was first sent to a local hospital, but the tendons in his arm were severed, and he was sent to Bangkok for surgery.

Mr Oake said there was speculation his son could lose his arm, but he was urged to leave hospital by his travel insurance company.

He returned to Prasat, nine hours away, but later needed another operation in Bangkok and treatment for an infection that had developed in his arm.

At that point, Mr Oake says the insurance company ordered his son to return to Australia for treatment or it would end his policy.

He was making the trip back to Prasat to fetch his passport on Sunday when he died on the mini-bus.

Mr Oake, who arrived in Thailand with his son's brother and mother this week, said he hoped his son's insurance would provide for Som and the baby.

"I told them he was in no condition to travel anywhere," he said.

"He was fatigued, he was in pain, he wouldn't make it."

The couple were married last year by local monks.

Their friend Travis Senne, an American living in Thailand, said he was concerned police had not made an arrest, weeks after the attack in the quiet town.

"Prasat is such a peaceful area, it's not a big city or anything," he said.

"Andrew was a very upstanding, honest person, a very responsible family man.

"He had a plan, a life plan, but it got cut short."

A Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade spokeswoman said staff had been in contact with the family and would provide all necessary consular assistance.

"The cause of death is a matter for Thai authorities to determine," she said.

Kendo.

[redzonerocker]

Sandman has it spot on.

Taking the OPs original post to infer "If you make a Thai lose face they will inevitably get their revenge on you" and then applying it more broadly to the whole of Thailand, there would be nobody left! Most business here is Thai to Thai, in the case of a contractor doing poor work and there being a dispute, which one of them should fear a delayed attack? The contractor? The customer? Both?
No, they sort it out between each other, probably in the most face-saving way possible. There's no need to just rollover and accept any old rubbish but ranting at someone in a foreign language will get you zero respect, in any country.

I think the difference is that Thai's can resolve disputes with themselves much easier than they can with foreigners. That has to be true of almost every country in the world, it's easier to discuss matters when both parties speak the same language, use the same body language and understand the subtle signs that allow people to say much more than they are actually saying.

I think the suggested "maxim for living in Thailand" is utter nonsense and doesn't describe what most of us experience on a day to day basis.

Spot on!

[margaretcarnes]

Normal Thai standards are certainly not up to our western ones in many aspects of building work. We should never expect them to be - and in some ways they are right, as in leaving water pipes and cabling exposed. They can do some excellent jobs with things like floor tiling, then wonder why you get upset about the plumbing.
The ONLY way is to agree a contract of staged payments via a Thai lawyer, and refer any problems back to the lawyer. Even then things can go wrong. But if a particular job hasn't been done right it is up to the lawyer to deal with it.
Always buy your own materials up front, with plenty extra to allow for mistakes - whether it is tiles, paint, wallpaper, fabrics or timber.
Always watch work in progress. Make a note of where any drainage pipes are laid. And if at all possible do your own decorating.
Failing all this be prepared to accept the Thai way and live with it.

[advocate]

I have learned when hiring contractors to give them small jobs first and then see if you like the quality of the work. If all is good you can ask them to do more. If you don't like the work you can then shop around.

If you give them large or multiple jobs you are stuck with them through the duration.

[margaretcarnes]

I have learned when hiring contractors to give them small jobs first and then see if you like the quality of the work. If all is good you can ask them to do more. If you don't like the work you can then shop around.

If you give them large or multiple jobs you are stuck with them through the duration.

Sensible - and really the same applies anywhere. It's like us females going to a new hairdresser. Get a wash and blow dry first! But on a bigger scale of course.
But the expectations of some farang regarding housebuilding can still be a bit too 'western' IMO. An English friend built a house in HH some years ago. Very nice too - with a big western style kitchen. Before long his Thai wife was having her friends round sitting in the middle of the kitchen floor around the BarB.