Bank books, the latest land office requirement or scam?

[buksida]

Not sure if there is a new law/requirement or someone in the land office is trying to pull a fast one.

I've been party to the transfer of several title deeds for land over the past couple of years but today was the first time I was told that it was not possible for farangs married to Thais unless you can show the bank book of the Thai wife with the funds in it to the value of the land to be purchased.

I have no idea what purpose this has because under Thai law a legally married couple are entitled to 50/50 on all assets purchased after the marriage was certified (naturally the alien can't have name on land so it will need to be sold - but both need to sign the documents). It makes no difference what account the money comes from to buy the land.

Later we were told that a bank book with less than the amount required can be accepted ... for a fee of 6,000 baht.

So, property gurus, is this a new law/clampdown or the latest scam by the land office to fleece a few more baht out of the aliens?

[usual suspect]

For many years now has there not been a legal form to fill-in, so when a Farang is married to a Thai national, then the Farang has to sign this to declare it was HER money (not his) that paid for the land/property that is about to be legally registered in HER name..?? (So, in reality,.. it makes it easier for the Thai lady to gain all property-based assets if/when her 'Teerak' is caught being a 'Butterfly' etc).

[buksida]

Yes, I'm aware of this and have had to sign before.

I was asking about the new requirement to show Thai bank books containing funds for the land purchase as this was a completely new one on me.

[HHTel]

You're correct Buksida in that a legal marriage is split 50/50 on divorce and any land/property is ordered to be sold. I've recently had the court rule in my favour on this one (much to her dissappointment!). As far as the document you sign in the land office saying it was her money that bought the property, it doesn't stand up in court. In fact the court will throw it out if it's tried. This document is not signed freely (if you don't sign then you can't have the land). Therefore it's considered signed under duress and the courts will have no truck with it.

One thing I found with the courts is that they're very fair and apply the law equally to thais and foreignors. I never heard the word 'farang' at any time while I was there.

(Incidentally, I'm back in court next week as my other half is not co-operating. The court has already told me that she will have her wrists slapped and told to comply or she will be arrested!)

I would encourage people to use the courts and not think "I'm a farang so I can't win!" Incidentally, a common law marriage is recognised in Thailand but very few people seem to realise that (including some lawyers).

[VincentD]

Buksi, something does not smell right with this one.

While it has been a while since I've done similar, I don't think it's necessary to show the total amount of (cash?); you pay the transfer fee based on the estimated value of the land being transferred.
Another property in her sister's name was transferred to hers when the law changed; it was still saddled with a bank loan so there would have been no way she (or her sister) would have the full cash amount in an account.
I vaguely remember that the land value was based on the average price of land in that particular area and being set by the Land Office. Fee was based on estimated property value, all you need to do is look at the chanote to have an idea of the size of the plot. The cost of the house is seldom factored in.

I doubt things have changed.

[buksida]

Thanks for the replies, the request was for a bank book containing the amount of cash to the sum of the land offices' valuation of the plot (not the actual sale price), only applicable to farangs with Thai partners. They refused to transfer the chanote without this (or an empty bank book and a bundle of tea money).

I still don't know whether this is a new law or a scam, our property experts have been very quiet, and nobody else seems to have come across this request so I'm leaning towards the latter.

[barrys]

Can you tell us which land office this is?

[VincentD]

Thanks for the replies, the request was for a bank book containing the amount of cash to the sum of the land offices' valuation of the plot (not the actual sale price), only applicable to farangs with Thai partners. They refused to transfer the chanote without this (or an empty bank book and a bundle of tea money).

I still don't see any reason for proof of having actual cash in hand (unless they want to set you up for something and will know that you have enough to cough up).

Assume the plot in question is a 'gift' from the 'ageing paternal great-grandfather', no cash involved, we just want you to have it. I see no reason that you should prove (in cash) that you're worthy of the 'gift'. (Born sceptic in me). Land department has approximate land value based on chanote, pay your fee, both sides sign, done deal.

If through a bank, just get a statement from said bank.

Perhaps they want to know where the money is coming from, and if it is above board, but don't quite know how to put it in words.

I still don't know whether this is a new law or a scam, our property experts have been very quiet, and nobody else seems to have come across this request so I'm leaning towards the latter.

Tea money = scam.

My two baht worth.

[buksida]

Can you tell us which land office this is?

Bangsaphan, hence the question on this board to see if anyone had experienced it in Hua Hin.

Evidently not so scam it is. Time to contact those lawyers again ...

[Super Joe]

Buksi, the lady we use to do the more complex land office stuff just called her contact at HH land office, and was told a definate 'no', it's not something they've been told to implement. The fact that they have so readily said they can 'bypass' it ok for 6k, says 'tea money' to me... but, it's a tricky one imo as I believe any old official in a land office is perfectly entitled to ask you for proof of the funds, bank books, pay slips, tax receipts etc... because they have a duty to look into/investigate instances where they suspect (at their discretion) a Thai acting as an agent for a foreigner. If the funds are really the Thais, via her own earnings, a gift, inheritance, loan or whatever then she should have some kind of documentation to verify it.

So calling their bluff 'might' prove tricky if it has the boss' support, if they take offence at a fuss being made they might make things as hard as possible and ask for substantiation. It's at the discretion of the official whether or not to sign off or ask for further documentation. Then again a low-ranking official may hopefully cave in. Personally I negotiate a bit and pay, cos I'm more worried about my wrongdoing than their tax on it


SJ

[Super Joe]

You're correct Buksida in that a legal marriage is split 50/50 on divorce and any land/property is ordered to be sold. I've recently had the court rule in my favour on this one (much to her disappointment!). As far as the document you sign in the land office saying it was her money that bought the property, it doesn't stand up in court. In fact the court will throw it out if it's tried.

Too right, in reality unless she can prove the funds were her's, then all she's doing is attracting some serious trouble. Good to hear things were fair and went well for you.

http://thaisolicitor.com/?p=177
The Penal Code; Section 267: "Whoever, in a manner likely to cause injury to another person or the public, cause an official in the course of his duties to make any false entry in a public or official document with the purpose to use it as evidence, shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding three years or fine not exceeding six thousand baht, or both"

The Chonburi Land Office, Banglamung Branch, has considered and concluded that according to the facts, it was found that Mrs. Vijittra Keowsupoh has the ownership of land with the title deed no. 89381, Nongprue Sub-District, Banglamung District, Chonburi Province as the nominee (agent) of Mr. Kevin Glin Devias. The acquisition of this land by Mrs. Vijittra is in violation of Section 267 of the Penal Code for providing the false statement to the registrar to make a false entry in the public document. The land registrar of Chonburi Land Office, Pattaya Branch will file the report with the police to take the legal action against her.

But that apart, in a divorce situation the land office document is simply a declaration of assets, and one that you now admit to being force. It's not any kind of agreement to gift the land to a spouse, the court would expect someone to prove the funds were there own pre-marriage.

Thai Law - Marital Property Section...
Section 1474: "In case of doubt as to whether a property is Sin Somros (marital property), or Sin Suan Tua (Personal Property), it shall be presumed to be Sin Somros."

SJ

[buksida]

Thai Law - Marital Property Section...
Section 1474: "In case of doubt as to whether a property is Sin Somros (marital property), or Sin Suan Tua (Personal Property), it shall be presumed to be Sin Somros."

That's how I saw it, so the bullshit papers they make the alien sign at the land office and the bank books they are now asking for have absolutely no purpose or relevance under Thai law for married couples. It is just another case of Thai bureaucrats making life difficult again as they're in search of more easy bribe money from foreigners.

[Super Joe]

The 6k payment re: bank books certainly seems that way. The funds declaration form seems designed to pay 'lip service' to the spouse nominee law and helps facilitate a stretching of the rules in most cases, so I can see that one from both sides.

Don't know if will affect you or not, but there are new land valuations coming into force soon (either 1st July or 1st Aug, forgot now), and they're a good bit higher according to someone who is in the process now. So anyone registering a lease or 'with consideration' Usufruct wants to beat the deadline, because even if wife owns the land already it could/should still affect the assessed rates for such agreements, and in turn the annual taxes due on them.


SJ

[buksida]

Three months later we finally got the chanote transferred. The bank book was still required but it did not need to show the full amount, they would not even consider a usufruct agreement (though I've had one done before at the same land office two years ago). As the alien husband I was also called into the bosses office where she gave me the "sign your rights away" form in English and proceeded to explain to me that I have no legal claim whatsoever to this land plot that my wife has just purchased.

Now then, questions that still stand are:

1) Is this practice occurring in Hua Hin land office yet?
2) Would this document hold up in a court of law where it is stipulated that anything accrued within the duration of legal marriage is to be split 50/50 between husband and wife in the event of a divorce?
3) Is this a local clampdown or a national thing enforced by the Thakisn government?

[PeteC]

Addressing #2 Buks, I can't quote a source yet but I'll look.....but no more than a month ago I read a legal article somewhere saying that the court simply ignores that document and proceeds as the law is written concerning divorce/property splits. It even mentioned it was another case of one branch of government doing their own thing, and the courts doing another. I may have read it on the Chavalit Finch site?....not sure. Pete