Dogs - The case for "neuter & release"

[DawnHRD]

We have suggested it, Mike. It's always been pooh-poohed. I assume because of the cost of the sutures.

[mildmike]

What suture material do they use then?

I know the SPCA here does dissolving sutures, with catgut off a reel, which is pretty much as cheap as you can get for suture material.

[DawnHRD]

Don't know. The vet & medical supplies will be Dogchance's domain (unless donations come in, they're the ones paying). I'll find out what they use & let you know.

[robby hh]

I have thought about posting on this thread for some time and now after this mornings experience of encountering a bitch on heat and the attendent uncountable snapping snarling mob I will do it.

Before I go any farther I will say that I have been a dog owner most of my life before I came to this country so have some understanding of how they work. Also where I come from they have a zero tolerance policy on stray dogs, anything that does not have a regristration tag is quickly rounded up and impounded, if not claimed within a week and expenses paid it is put down. Hence no stray dog problem.

It really is a disgrace in this town there is nowhere you can walk without having to avoid piles of kee maa. I have travelled extensivly in Thailand and nowhere have I seen a stray dog problem like here.

I personal have only had 5 dogs attempt to bite me in the 2 years I have been in TL 4 of those in HH the other in Udon Thani, I wonder how many other people get snapped at and how long it will be before a child is the victim.

I have not looked at all your research but can tell you right now that a dead dog will never breed and once it is dead one small part of the problem is gone, whereas with cutting and getting them in good health then releasing them each one will still be part of the problem till it dies in anything up to 10 or 15 years time.
And of course it will also get a new load of parisites and other diseases from the rest of the pack you haven't caught up with yet.

When there is rubbish everywhere people will drop litter without looking for a bin and when there are lots of stray dogs people will let unwanted dogs go, same principal. Then when there is lots of kee maa around people will let their dogs out to use the same toilet.

Then we come to the cost of your policy: how many hungry kids could you feed with the money you spend on these useless mutts? Or possibly you could set up a support center for all the disabled we see crawling around begging, now there is something I could agree with.

But nursing stray dogs back to health and releasing them to continue being a pest, no way.

Extreme predjice as the yanks say is the only solution and as soon as possible. Consider Dawn that you may be part of the problem and not the solution, if you were not doing your thing, no matter how well intentioned possibly the tesabaan would be moved to control the strays? if they got enough complaints.

If the 40 you cut every month were eliminated and the ones I believe the tesabaan do were added to that then that would be something like 600 or 700 a year less on the streets and of course half of those would be bitches that are no longer producing pups. sure the remainder would continue as now but that will happen anyway.

Implimenting and publicising a zero tolerance policy is the only way to solve the problem, sure it will take time but not nearly as long as it will your way.

I do respect your motives in this Dawn but they are misplaced Oh and I am sorry your shop had to close I used to get things there from time to time.

Robby

[lomuamart]

All I'll add to this is the simple fact that there are far fewer strays and dangerous ones at that, than there were years ago.
So, just maybe the efforts of Dawn and others have worked - just a bit.
I don't know how long you've been here in town, robbie hh, but I can assure you it was a scary experience walking from Soi Bintabart to Chosim Road at 3am a few years ago. Just a couple of blocks, but you definitely took your life in your hands against the packs of dogs. Fierce and aggressive.
Do you see them now? I don't even see them on the beach. Maybe they're elsewhere, but it's up to a local community to tackle that problem in conjunction with people like Dawn.
I don't really think you've got much idea of how HHDRC et al have helped the centre of town.

[Wanderlust]

Agree lomu, and I also think that robby hasn't got much idea how the dogs operate, or how the neuter and release programme will work. Dawn has explained it very clearly, and not only is it a humane way to deal with the problem, it is also effective and takes into consideration the fact that most Thais will not kill or be party to the killing of a dog, because of their beliefs. Sure it is not as instantaneous as going on the street with an Uzi, but as Dawn has pointed out, other dogs will move into vacated turf and continue producing offspring, so the problem will still exist; a neutering programme will eventually solve the problem for good while not disturbing anyone's sensibilities.

[DawnHRD]

Thanks, WL & Lomu. Robby is entitled to his opinion & it is valid - particularly where aggressive dogs are concerned. I never said it would be a quick fix solution or that we could do everything. I appreciate we will only be affecting a small number of dogs, slowly. But at least we're getting off our a*ses & doing something. No-one else (including the Tessadban, really) is.

I was in a meeting with the Tessadban a couple of weeks ago where I, again, put forward widescale N&R forward, as an alternative to shipping dogs to their facility & then not being able to care for them properly. Basically, I was patted on the head & smiled at, indulgently. They have no intention of culling the dogs, Robby, whatever you think. They think that will harm there image as a caring tourist town. Their idea is to introduce a registration scheme and fine owners if their dogs are caught roaming. That's great, as far as it goes. But it doesn't take 2 things into account: owners, who when threatened with a fine, will say - "That's not my dog" & the genuine strays. What is going to be done with all of them?

Yes, the Tessadban do, sporadically, operate a mobile neuter clinic, but I imagine that they do less dogs a year than we plan to. I appreciate your opinion, Robby, and the reasoning behind it, but I still believe neutering is the way to go. I just wish we could tackle the problem more aggressively (ie numbers) than we're going to be able to.

Just like neutering, Robby, culling requires you get every last dog to reach your goal. You leave any alive (including less than 100% responsibly owned ones), your problem starts again. In a province in China at the moment, they are doing just that - killing all dogs, owned or not. Gangs, paid per dog, are dragging dogs out of their owner's homes & beating them to death in front of their owners. I have heard of one elderly woman having a heart attack when her dog was dragged from her. She & her dog died together. There are also reports of a teenaged girl killing herself after her dog was killed in front of her. For culling to be 100% successful, those are the lengths that would have to be reached.

[ADW]

A couple of years ago I was at home when the local "dog catchers" came and picked up a couple of soi dogs that I think one of my neighbours complained about. The way they caught them and the crying of the dogs, to this day I regret not going out there and stopping it. (Unfortuantly I can't keep dogs, I have cats, but no excuse).

The vet I use which is down the Klong road near Pae Mai has a collection box for neutering stray dogs. How often they do this I don't know, but it is a Thai vet, and they obviously are aware that breeding soi dogs is a problem.

I don't know if there are other vets collecting, but maybe if they all got together along with HHDRC and then went to the municipality, power in numbers and all that..........

[DawnHRD]

Then we come to the cost of your policy: how many hungry kids could you feed with the money you spend on these useless mutts? Or possibly you could set up a support center for all the disabled we see crawling around begging, now there is something I could agree with.

Robby

I didn't answer this part before as the animals vs humans debate is something that I don't believe helps either cause. However, I will, on further consideration, say this:

Firstly, I believe that only someone who puts in the same amount of time, money, commitment & dedication as me, to any cause, has the right to criticise my choices. Funnily enough, those people never do criticise me, as they realise (as do I) that all causes need support, help & finances & people prepared to make sacrifices for them. If you're so concerned about these kids/disabled people, go & do something about them. When you are, then we'll talk about the ethics of my choice as opposed to yours.

Secondly, I do support human causes. If you look through my previous posts, you'll see that I support Mercy House Orphanage & Cheshire Home in Cha-am & try & raise awareness & support for both. You may also be interested to know that the leftover stock from the shop is NOT going to Soi Dog Rescue's Charity shop in BKK, it's going to Thaitanics Charity Shop in Phuket, to support a halfway/safe house for Thai women & kids.

Thirdly, I support the welfare of a Thai orphan everyday of my life. I feed him, clothe him, educate him & love him. I have no legal responsibility towards him (in fact the authorities won't let me legally adopt him), but since his father died, I have been his source of love, care & finance. So, don't try & make me out to be misguided in my priorities. Every day I do more than most people who criticise me do in a year, for humans & animals.

[DawnHRD]

ADW,

That's the vet that we use now. He's a good guy. He also has a menagerie of 3 legged & paraplegic animals in the backyard of the clinic that he's helped & now has no homes for. Same as us.

[robby hh]

One last word from me on this before I move on next week to travel some more.

Yes as a long time owner I do have a good idea of how dogs operate and I have come across dogs that have gone wild in the forest and seen the devistation they can cause with native wildlife.
There are still plenty of dogs on the beach the worst time is around daylight, an hour of so after that they disappear.

I have only been in HH for 2 years and I have travelled a lot in that time, Cant say I have noticed any decline in the population but there has been shifts, as vacent plots get built on and houses get knocked down on others.

Lets have a look at what we are talking about here.

These are not adorable family pets that have strayed or wild animals that have accidently come into human habitat from the forest but a self sustaining population of domesticated but still dangerous animals that have gone feral, they are a real health risk and have nothing to recomend them at all. As my ancient granny used to say " they are neither use nor orniment"

They can carry many disease and parasites that are easily transfered to owned dogs and to humans, Remember reading Dawn about the lice you have picked up when dealing with these things.
Had a friend whoes wife caught hydatids from one of their dogs, aparantly she was lucky to survive.

There is also the danger of direct attack, dosent take many of these things to be capable of killing even a full size man let alone a child that gets in their way. There was a story on the news not long before I escaped to LOS about a woman in ,I think Australia. who was killed by her own dog, neibours heard screams and when they got in the house found the dog had got her on the floor and ripped her throat out. Said they couldnt understand it, such a nice friendly dog.

Then there is the general nusience they cause with the mess they make and their intimidating presence, cant see that they are much different to rats, which are another thing that should be tackled.

OK end of horror stories.

I dont like to be a critic unless I can put forward some sort of a sugestion so hear is my 2Baht worth.

First there must be a will to tackle the problem at a political level then once a policy of doing something is established the first step is to get all owned dogs identified.
This can be done with either tattoos, including the owners phone number, or inserted chips. With the chips all vets would be required to make a data base of owners and dogs which would be passed on to the Tesabaan. There would have to be a lead in time for this and and it would have to be well publicised with the consequenses of an unmarked dog being picked up and impounded spelt out.
No need for a regristration system as such only identification.

After a suitable period to allow dogs to be marked the Tesabaan would post a bounty on all stray(for want of a better word) dogs of say 20B they would have to be delivered to a collecting point alive and without injuries from the collecting for a payment to be made. There would be no payment for marked dogs but any that came in would be retained and the owner notified they could pick up their dog for a fine of say 200B, increasing to 500B the second time and upwards from there if needed.

All strays would then be taken to a disposal point, only need to be picked up once.

It shouldnt take long before the population declines to the stage where it isnt worth anyones while bringing in the odd survivor, then a ranger can be employed to mop up the dregs, possibly the most successful catcher.
It would also make good dog owners, same principal as motorbike helmets, only worn because you may get fined if you dont.

Thats it in brief,I know you wont agree with me because you want these things to live a long and happy stress free life, without breeding of course.

Although I cant agree with the way you are going about it I do wish you luck with what you are doing and hope each time I stop off in HH I can say Yes there has been an improvement

Robby

[JD]

Who going to pay for these chips and inserting them into the dogs?

I just can’t see anybody in Thailand who is going to do that.

I can see pick up trucks full to the brim with dogs for 20 B each every day until there are no dogs left. If a dogs got a tattoo in it’s ear then one in five dogs handed in will be one ear less.

Fine the owners of registered dogs that they collect, that’s not only a possible right little earner for someone, but also a sure fire way of most Thai owners saying to them to put it down then.

Not sure what the best way to deal with the dog situation is, but if it means money from the owners or the Tessabahn to do it, it will never get off the ground.

Neuter and release is still the best way I think. But this needs to be done on a large scale. For example if you are only doing 50 dogs a month and more than 50 pups are born each month, although in time you will affect the population, at first it will be a drop in the ocean.

[PeteC]

I don't know how they did it but the tourist areas of Pattaya and Jomtien were once as bad as everyone is describing HH now. It got into the press and within about 2 months, the streets were clear, as they remain today for the most part. This was around 1998. There was talk they were all shipped upcountry somewhere. Yes, each neighborhood has 1 or 2 resident muts who tail after the BBQ chicken vendor everyday and each bar as a resident mascot, but no large accumulation of dogs and all the fighting that brings.

Even if you drive to some of the far out residential areas now, you seldom see packs of dogs like you did before. I think it's an ongoing program here. Back in the 90's, rabies was a frequent problem in this area. I think that and the bad press forced them into action. Pete

[DawnHRD]

Upcountry. So they're being sold for food & exported to neighbouring countries that eat dogs.

[DawnHRD]

Lets have a look at what we are talking about here.

These are not adorable family pets that have strayed or wild animals that have accidently come into human habitat from the forest but a self sustaining population of domesticated but still dangerous animals that have gone feral, they are a real health risk and have nothing to recomend them at all. As my ancient granny used to say " they are neither use nor orniment"

How much experience of these dogs do you honestly have? I work with them every single day, and this is not what I see at all. And that's not sentimentality - I'm not sentimental.

they would have to be delivered to a collecting point alive and without injuries from the collecting for a payment to be made. There would be no payment for marked dogs but any that came in would be retained and the owner notified they could pick up their dog for a fine of say 200B, increasing to 500B the second time and upwards from there if needed.

Where is this collection point going to be & how is it going to be staffed?

All strays would then be taken to a disposal point,

I've already told you, the Tessadban won't cull. They are afraid it will tarnish their tourist image. They are probably right, that it would.

Thats it in brief,I know you wont agree with me because you want these things to live a long and happy stress free life, without breeding of course.

Although I cant agree with the way you are going about it I do wish you luck with what you are doing and hope each time I stop off in HH I can say Yes there has been an improvement

So do I. Have a good trip.