Where To Find The Truth - Quality Of Housing Developments

[JimmyGreaves]

Seems as though it is now gonna be more difficult to post both good and bad comments about peoples experiences with one of the largest purchases they will ever make in their life, notably a new house.

As most of us know there was a thread about a housing project on the forum and it has had to be removed because of a complaint by the developer stating the following (See Below):

Does a disclaimer hold up in a court of law?

Then on the other hand giving out false information whether good or bad can cause damage. What to do?

Dear Sir, madam

We have been informed that there is again unfounded negative information on your site. The first time already more than a year ago you made the decision to remove the texts and warn the person who posted it.

This time you only sent us the disclaimer.

As we are suffering great damage and you are responsible we ask you to consider this mail as a notice.

We will hold you fully responsible for all damage by keeping unfounded information on your site and although your disclaimer states that you have no responsibility we are sure you have as there is no way we can or feel like contacting the person as they are hiding.

Within 48 hours we will file a criminal complaint against an unknown advertiser on your site and against you keeping damaging unfounded information on your site although you have been made aware.

[Jim]

time to remember the old Yorkshire phrase of believe half you see and nothing you hear.

Anyone committing the spenders to buying a house needs to do their own homework.

Freedom of speech on the Internet is altogether more complicated. There are no facts, only degrees of interpretation.

[caller]

All so true!

And my interpretation of the "message" quoted above?

Walk the other way.

Talk about sending out the wrong message! Wouldn't touch the place or the owners with a bargepole now.

When will such people learn that debate is good for the soul? What are they gonna do, scrutinise every website for some info about their place - good, bad or indifferent?

I'll give them a clue for starters. Another site they have the privilege of being mentioned on starts with one word, but two syllables - 1st begins with a T and the 2nd with a V. Work it out.

Then, when that's done, they can move on to the next one, cos' I know of another (some reports good, some not good) and the next infinitum and so on until they go full circle……

[H2ODunc]

I have to agree with caller. The fact they have had to threaten the owners of HHAD with a court case has called into question their ethics. For me they would have been better treated by posting a reply to the negative remarks. I now wouldnt go anywhere near them. They will need to have a very large legal financing pool if that is the way they want to go. Do a search and lots of bad articles come up on them, are they honestly going to sue every one. Customer satisfaction is very important here in Thailand and especially in the housing market. It is a big investment and people need to be assured. Like everywhere there are good and bad copanies, just make sure you do your homework before deciding.

[huahinsimon]

You cannot find the truth in property magazines. I have never seen a negative story in any of them and there are plenty of negative stories out there. These property mags are just shills for developers. In "truth" most articles should be labeled ADVERTISEMENT to alert the unwary. One mag published a "heart warming" story by a couple who were "sitting in our cold flat in the U.K. wondering if we'd ever feel warm again. " What followed was a three page commercial extolling the development in which they purchased, complete with pictures of "villa" types, and contact information for sales staff that would make the marketing manager of the development proud. They should hire this person! Oh, I understand they did, maybe even before the article was printed.

Developers with long lists of complaints against them are allowed to run adverts calling themselves professional civil engineer with decades of experience. Do the mags check credentials? another is a builder of renound providing top quality fixtures and fittings throughout. When in fact you can't find cheaper fitting or fixtures at the local shops. Would you like to purchase a 5 bedroom home and discover later it had a 100 liter hot water heater, made in China, with a one year warranty, that the sales people at Home Pro say is "no good" and rated for a two bedroom, two bath home?

The truth is punters can't get the truth in the local media. Only through word of mouth, which an internet forum can provide, can some of the truth come out. Instead of trying to stifle debate, developers ought to encourage debate. Everyone can make mistakes but mistakes can be corrected IF THERE IS THE WILL TO DO SO. That is where the less than competent developers are lacking. With their eyes fixed firmly on their profits, most refuse to give any meaningful aftersales service because it will cost a few baht. Their three year warranty is worthless. They know most people won't hire a solicitor and spend the time and money to take them to court. Punters end up fixing the property themselves. The only good thing is that they probably get a better quality job than if the developer had sent his "experienced crew" back to do the repair.

The real estate companies are no help either. Almost all claim they will not push or promote anything that does not meet high standards or pass their stringent requirements. Yet they advertize and sell properties of questionable quality and even safety, that prior purchasers have told them about. There is indeed a conspiracy of silence between the media and the developers: see no problem, hear no problem, speak of no problem.

[hogus]

Absolutely agreed with all above!

I just hope, that those that try to threaten the owners of a public Internet-forum have also the courage to send similar threatening letters to the Thai-Administration.
The uncertain juridical situation for foreign investors, the fact that a foreigner can't own land, and the lack of skilled local workers to maintain high-class building standards might damage their business more as every discussion forum can do.

I already see court cases and recourses by billions of Baht from disappointed developers coming up to the Thai-government

[gaijin]

I’m not into the HH property scene yet, other than wishing I had the money to be there and in my dreams. But I am interested in what others have to say. From what I can gather from looking at posts from time to time, there only seems to be one developer who has complaints that seem to have reached the point where things might go legal. This is the development where I have read that there are problems with leaking rooves. If rooves leak and are not being fixed, then a statement to this effect is simply the truth. There should be no problem with stating truthful facts.

I haven’t heard of many other complaints about other developments. The developer should realise that his cheapest solution would be to fix the source of the complaints.

[johnnyk]

Avalon has every right to protect itself by cautioning those who would make slanderous claims and statements. In most countries one cannot slander or libel individuals or businesses with impunity whether in the media or on the internet.
Let those with axes to grind, real or imagined, come out from their keyboard hideyholes and lay documented information on the table using real names rather than internet 'handles'.
If they have the courage to slander someone's business by its actual name surely they can do it in their own name and reveal their real agenda, or would that require being a vertebrate?

[ozuncle]

Sure they spat the dummy, but put yourself in their position

I can understand the frustration in seeing complaints on a forum such as this. How easy is it for a competitor to flood the forum with unfounded criticism?
There is nothing the developer can do and no matter what he does the damage has been done.

I cant believe a developer would be so stupid as to not act on any legitimate maintenace problems when they occur. I believe all new houses have problems. When we bought it was not raining. Everything looked OK but then the rain came. Our family came down to check on the house one weekend and found a leak. The developer fixed it IMMEDIATELY.

If all the complaints are by (anomynous) opposition developers there is nothing they can do.

I believe that the forum should not accept complaints (of a serious nature) unless the op is prepared to be upfront with his name and
address and if serious enough it should be verified by the publisher.

Sydney recently had a case where a restaurant was reviewed by a newspaper. The review was not good and the restaurant eventualy closed down. The owners blamed the review and successfully sued the newspaper.

[Procyon]

A sad state of affairs, a thread is started singing the praises of a development and when a contrary opinion is presented which balances the discussion all hell breaks loose.

The developer puts himself in a bigger hole by threatening a public forum with legal action, the forum doesn't have the balls to leave the topic there (probably because the developer has more money and lawyers) and the discussion starts again here.

How long until this one gets deleted? Press freedom ... dream on.

[caller]

Procyon has said it as it was.

There was lots of good coverage and one dissenting, offered to show his home if I recall, then the thread was shut down as a result of the threat by the developer.

Johnyk, you have always defended Avalon, both here and elsewhere - I remember when it was going up and there was debate about the build quality, you defended it, stated you would pay more for worse elsewhere, then I recall you posted positively after you must have been one of the first to move in. What's your angle? Are you simply a satisfied home owner or more?

And if you are just a satisfied owner, great, but what's so bad when one or two who aren't so satisfied, have their say?

Just curious.

Why is only the good allowed? And just as Ozuncle states, whilst other developers could rubbish a site anonymously, so can it be hyped up in the same way as reported on this thread above and may well have been on other threads here?

What a tangled web!

[ozuncle]

Yes Caller, if you want to lavish praise at least be honest and give your personal details so that your claims can be verified.
A very difficult situation but as I said in a previous post. Would you base a big financial decision such as purchasing property on the say so of a faceless comment on the internet? I dont think so.

[caller]

Yes Caller, if you want to lavish praise at least be honest and give your personal details so that your claims can be verified.
A very difficult situation but as I said in a previous post. Would you base a big financial decision such as purchasing property on the say so of a faceless comment on the internet? I dont think so.

I agree, but seemingly one developer thinks so!

[H2ODunc]

QUOTE "There was lots of good coverage and one dissenting, offered to show his home if I recall, then the thread was shut down as a result of the threat by the developer"
I would not class somebody prepared to show the state of his house to people unconfirmed anonymous slander. As with a lot of the other posters it seems its OK to say certain developers are great but somebody mention a problem then the link is closed. Its the same as when people warn about the fact you cannot own the land or house. Do this and you are flamed by all the regulars saying its not so. If you want to buy a property in HH then get a GOOD lawyer and take your time choosing a developer. Go and look at properties they have already built and talk to some happy? customers. Its a buyers market remember.The wife and I talked to lots and were told so much Buls$%t we just walked away and decided against buying in HH. As someone has already said I cant see this thread lasting for long.
Till then fill yer boots

[johnnyk]

Johnyk, you have always defended Avalon, both here and elsewhere - I remember when it was going up and there was debate about the build quality, you defended it, stated you would pay more for worse elsewhere, then I recall you posted positively after you must have been one of the first to move in. What's your angle? Are you simply a satisfied home owner or more?

And if you are just a satisfied owner, great, but what's so bad when one or two who aren't so satisfied, have their say?

Just curious.

Why is only the good allowed? And just as Ozuncle states, whilst other developers could rubbish a site anonymously, so can it be hyped up in the same way as reported on this thread above and may well have been on other threads here?

What a tangled web!

caller,
I have defended avalon in the past because it seemed to me there was an unjust, unspecific and ongoing vendetta for reasons unknown. It did seem to me that avalon has been singled out but I have never encountered any building project anywhere on three continents that did not have some problems.

What I object to is not proper recounting of facts such as roof leaks etc, this stuff can be documented and is in the nature of legitimate complaint and if presented in a reasoned manner does no harm but rather serves to share information. I have friends there and I'm as aware as anybody else on HHAD of some of the problems that occurred.

But much of the slagging has been by those who do not own there (or, it seems, anywhere else). No pompem, everyone makes their choice of where to buy. Its their money. If someone chose not to buy then that's their statement so why continue raging about it unless there is some other agenda? So, what I object to is vague slagging with no reason stated plainly by anonymous posters which does have an odor to it.

Yes, I have bought a house there but am not yet fully moved in.
I don't sing the praises indiscriminately nor do I slag. I will say I have been treated fairly by them and any concerns I have had have been met without drama. Without checking all my posts I don't believe I have acted as a shill (witness a recent arse-kissing post) but simply reported my own observations/expereince with the project which I know how to do objectively after 20+ years as a journalist.

I am all for freedom of responsible speech but its worth recalling the words of, I think, Oliver Wendell Holmes, who said the right of free speech does not include the right to yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre if there is no fire.