This is the qualifying rule for UK state pensions if living abroad and out of the EU:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAnd ... G_10026714
This appears to be the rules for getting free NHS as a UK state pensioner if not normally resident in the UK or EU:
http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Policyandguidan ... /DH_074384
As ever, happy to be corrected!
Brit Expat done for Benefit Fraud
Caller,
Thanks, some very useful information contained in those links. However, I don't think it really covers my circumstances ie:
- It doesn't mention the circumstance when by moving to Thailand my state pension would be frozen; followed by my decision to return to the UK for a period. I would already be receiving a 'frozen' state pension. My question was how long would it take for my pension to be restored to the normal 'thawed' UK rate; and if I subsequently returned to live in Thailand, would I receive the previously frozen rate, or would the new 'thawed' rate be the starting point for freezing again?
- I won't be receiving a state pension for some time. For the 1st 12 years of retirement, I will be receiving a company pension that will be subject to UK taxes etc.
Thanks, some very useful information contained in those links. However, I don't think it really covers my circumstances ie:
- It doesn't mention the circumstance when by moving to Thailand my state pension would be frozen; followed by my decision to return to the UK for a period. I would already be receiving a 'frozen' state pension. My question was how long would it take for my pension to be restored to the normal 'thawed' UK rate; and if I subsequently returned to live in Thailand, would I receive the previously frozen rate, or would the new 'thawed' rate be the starting point for freezing again?
- I won't be receiving a state pension for some time. For the 1st 12 years of retirement, I will be receiving a company pension that will be subject to UK taxes etc.
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Well it's of interest to me as well, but the best I can find is this:
Am I resident or ordinarily resident? What is the difference?
If you are physically present in the UK at some time during a tax year then you are considered as resident in the UK. Likewise, you will always be considered to be resident if you reside in the UK for 183 days or more in a tax year. If you are resident in the UK year after year after year, then you are deemed to be ordinarily resident. The guidelines are based on rulings of the Courts and the decision on your residential status will be based on the facts of your particular case.
So what is needed now is some idea of the relevant case law. And as I belong to a forum that has 3/4 lawyers regularly contributing and giving great, user friendly advice, I'll ask there and hopefully come back with an answer.
Am I resident or ordinarily resident? What is the difference?
If you are physically present in the UK at some time during a tax year then you are considered as resident in the UK. Likewise, you will always be considered to be resident if you reside in the UK for 183 days or more in a tax year. If you are resident in the UK year after year after year, then you are deemed to be ordinarily resident. The guidelines are based on rulings of the Courts and the decision on your residential status will be based on the facts of your particular case.
So what is needed now is some idea of the relevant case law. And as I belong to a forum that has 3/4 lawyers regularly contributing and giving great, user friendly advice, I'll ask there and hopefully come back with an answer.
Decided to search myself and will ask as a last resort.
This seems relevant:
R(P) 1/01 [2000] CP/3035/1999 (UK Social Security and Child Support Commissioners’ Decisions 12 September 2000)
This case concerns eligibility for up-ratings of retirement pension, but turns on whether the claimants were ordinarily resident in both New Zealand and Britain. From 1992, the claimants had lived most of the year in New Zealand, for family reasons, but returned every year to Britain for a single period of between two and six months. They stated that they did not travel to other countries and they never left Britain without buying return tickets.
One of the claimants had been granted residency rights in New Zealand, but the other had not applied for them. The Commissioners held that they were ordinarily resident in both countries because, amongst other reasons:
Britain had, until the events in issue, been their long-term home and they still had a home there at all relevant times which was not occupied by anyone else (although they had tried to sell it)
their strongest economic ties were with Britain which remained the source of their main income (their pension) and was a country where at least one was paying tax
there was a clear pattern over several years of extended periods spent in both Britain and New Zealand but at no time did a full year go by without an extended visit back to Britain and by 1998 the claimants had established a clear pattern of extended residence in both Britain and New Zealand.
Well, I'm no expert, but to me the relevant parts are the one I have highlighted in bold and fit's in with BB remaining a UK tax payer and the other, immediately above, is the fact they had not rented out or sold their property (although trying to), which I guess could have affected their status as decided by the commissioners?
The question is had they rented out or sold their property, would that have impacted on their status?
(Later edit) BB, I guess a factor will be how long you intend to return for each year?
More to follow if I find anything.
This seems relevant:
R(P) 1/01 [2000] CP/3035/1999 (UK Social Security and Child Support Commissioners’ Decisions 12 September 2000)
This case concerns eligibility for up-ratings of retirement pension, but turns on whether the claimants were ordinarily resident in both New Zealand and Britain. From 1992, the claimants had lived most of the year in New Zealand, for family reasons, but returned every year to Britain for a single period of between two and six months. They stated that they did not travel to other countries and they never left Britain without buying return tickets.
One of the claimants had been granted residency rights in New Zealand, but the other had not applied for them. The Commissioners held that they were ordinarily resident in both countries because, amongst other reasons:
Britain had, until the events in issue, been their long-term home and they still had a home there at all relevant times which was not occupied by anyone else (although they had tried to sell it)
their strongest economic ties were with Britain which remained the source of their main income (their pension) and was a country where at least one was paying tax
there was a clear pattern over several years of extended periods spent in both Britain and New Zealand but at no time did a full year go by without an extended visit back to Britain and by 1998 the claimants had established a clear pattern of extended residence in both Britain and New Zealand.
Well, I'm no expert, but to me the relevant parts are the one I have highlighted in bold and fit's in with BB remaining a UK tax payer and the other, immediately above, is the fact they had not rented out or sold their property (although trying to), which I guess could have affected their status as decided by the commissioners?
The question is had they rented out or sold their property, would that have impacted on their status?
(Later edit) BB, I guess a factor will be how long you intend to return for each year?
More to follow if I find anything.
Last edited by caller on Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Some interesting stuff in this Guardian article from 2006 - especially re: "Domicle" -
http://www.guardianabroad.co.uk/finance ... article/92
But as far as I can see from everything I have read, you will have to contact the Tax Office to explain your personal circumstances and from there basically, agree with their decision, or haggle!
http://www.guardianabroad.co.uk/finance ... article/92
But as far as I can see from everything I have read, you will have to contact the Tax Office to explain your personal circumstances and from there basically, agree with their decision, or haggle!
Thanks again caller,
Some good detective work, although I would be interested to hear how you get on with:
- His sister made the initial arrangements with her GP. In the initial link that you posted it did state that it was up to the GP whether he/she would accept you as a patient.
- Sarge did get in to hospital, but his admission was because of severe health problems that occurred soon after his arrival in the UK. Had his condition not worsened, I'm not so sure that he would have been admitted so quickly. Again, Sarge's views would be appreciated.
Some good detective work, although I would be interested to hear how you get on with:
However, what I can't get out of my mind was my chat with Sarge during my last visit to Thailand - he had been in Thailand for many years on a Government pension. He checked it out and had it confirmed that as a UK tax payer, he was entitled to NHS treatment when he returned to the UK. There were 2 things though that could have swung it for him (and it would be useful to hear his comments) ie:I belong to a forum that has 3/4 lawyers regularly contributing and giving great, user friendly advice, I'll ask there and hopefully come back with an answer.
- His sister made the initial arrangements with her GP. In the initial link that you posted it did state that it was up to the GP whether he/she would accept you as a patient.
- Sarge did get in to hospital, but his admission was because of severe health problems that occurred soon after his arrival in the UK. Had his condition not worsened, I'm not so sure that he would have been admitted so quickly. Again, Sarge's views would be appreciated.
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margaretcarnes
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Brit Expat done for Benefit Fraud
Interesting discussion - can I just clarify some points for you guys. Pagey -
Nevets is right - UK state pension increases are frozen while you are in Thailand (and some other countries such as Australia.) Providing of course the authorities are told - and as someone has pointed out the government can gain access to bank accounts.
'Caller' has identified the article referred to in the Express.
'Domiciled' is the term rightly or wrongly used by the DWP for people 'not ordinarily resident in the UK'
Which brings us to Big Boys question about going back to the UK, and what happens.,
First, how you are treated on your return depends on how long you have been away on a continuous basis. Any absence of 5 years or more and you can expect to get the third degree. Questions are asked such as whether you still have property in the UK, whether you had a job abroad, have you been back to the UK for hols, have you kept in touch with family/friends here. All these questions and more are aimed at trying to establish whether you can be classed as 'habitually resident' in the UK. Only then can you claim anything.
Strangely enough though you CAN walk into any GP surgery and be treated, issued with prescriptions and sick notes if needed, and referred for hospital treatment. Even if you have lost your medical card.
Trust me on this - been there - got the T shirt!
Nevets is right - UK state pension increases are frozen while you are in Thailand (and some other countries such as Australia.) Providing of course the authorities are told - and as someone has pointed out the government can gain access to bank accounts.
'Caller' has identified the article referred to in the Express.
'Domiciled' is the term rightly or wrongly used by the DWP for people 'not ordinarily resident in the UK'
Which brings us to Big Boys question about going back to the UK, and what happens.,
First, how you are treated on your return depends on how long you have been away on a continuous basis. Any absence of 5 years or more and you can expect to get the third degree. Questions are asked such as whether you still have property in the UK, whether you had a job abroad, have you been back to the UK for hols, have you kept in touch with family/friends here. All these questions and more are aimed at trying to establish whether you can be classed as 'habitually resident' in the UK. Only then can you claim anything.
Strangely enough though you CAN walk into any GP surgery and be treated, issued with prescriptions and sick notes if needed, and referred for hospital treatment. Even if you have lost your medical card.
Trust me on this - been there - got the T shirt!
Re: Brit Expat done for Benefit Fraud
But only in specialised parts of certain departments, in certain circumstances, with the right strictly controlled powers, and certainly not as part of a 'fishing expedition' (at the moment!).margaretcarnes wrote: and as someone has pointed out the government can gain access to bank accounts.
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margaretcarnes
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Brit Expat done for Benefit Fraud
Hi Caller - yes, true, not as a 'fishing trip'! But the case in question was a fraud investigation 
Margaret
I know my UK pension will not attract annual increases when I am living in Thailand which will be no later than 2010. However, I will not be able to claim my pension until 2026. So you are saying it will be frozen at 2010 rates, not 2026 rates ?
I know my UK pension will not attract annual increases when I am living in Thailand which will be no later than 2010. However, I will not be able to claim my pension until 2026. So you are saying it will be frozen at 2010 rates, not 2026 rates ?
'If you didn't have a wasted youth you wasted your youth'
Man in pub circa 1987.
Man in pub circa 1987.
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Vital Spark
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Sorry to divert to the medical bit again, but I feel it's quite important.
Here's my little tale:
We (Parahandy and I) arrived in Thailand in 1997. We go back to the UK every two years for about three weeks. In 2002, during our bi-annual duty trip and, I hasten to add, after I sat and watched England getting beaten by Scotland at Murrayfield, I became quite ill. The next day, in Perthshire, I was feeling like I wanted to die. My sister-in-law rang her GP and explained my predicament. He wasn't able to come out to see me, but, bless him, he ordered an ambulance to take me to Perthshire Royal Infirmary. The upshot was that I had a burst appendix. It took them a while to diagnose because we said that 'We had just come from Thailand' (which wasn't a lie). They thought that I may have contracted some kind of tropical disease - or something. The German doctor was worried that I hadn't taken any anti-malaria pills! Anyroads, I was operated on and three days later I was released. Nobody wanted to see my NI card, I gave my parents address in Suffolk, and I was given a letter to take to my 'local' GP. I obviously didn't go to see my local GP as I was no longer on his books. Anyway, I felt OK so no need. No questions, no costs. Just excellent care when I needed it. Great timing, eh?
VS
Here's my little tale:
We (Parahandy and I) arrived in Thailand in 1997. We go back to the UK every two years for about three weeks. In 2002, during our bi-annual duty trip and, I hasten to add, after I sat and watched England getting beaten by Scotland at Murrayfield, I became quite ill. The next day, in Perthshire, I was feeling like I wanted to die. My sister-in-law rang her GP and explained my predicament. He wasn't able to come out to see me, but, bless him, he ordered an ambulance to take me to Perthshire Royal Infirmary. The upshot was that I had a burst appendix. It took them a while to diagnose because we said that 'We had just come from Thailand' (which wasn't a lie). They thought that I may have contracted some kind of tropical disease - or something. The German doctor was worried that I hadn't taken any anti-malaria pills! Anyroads, I was operated on and three days later I was released. Nobody wanted to see my NI card, I gave my parents address in Suffolk, and I was given a letter to take to my 'local' GP. I obviously didn't go to see my local GP as I was no longer on his books. Anyway, I felt OK so no need. No questions, no costs. Just excellent care when I needed it. Great timing, eh?
VS
"Properly trained, man can be a dog's best friend"
Vital Spark wrote:
When my daughter returned to Thailand to live, we told everybody such as doctors, dentist etc. She still gets letters from them 10 years on.
Is there any reason (apart from being public spirited) that you told your GP that you no longer wished to be on his books? If you hadn't told him, how would he have known?I obviously didn't go to see my local GP as I was no longer on his books.
When my daughter returned to Thailand to live, we told everybody such as doctors, dentist etc. She still gets letters from them 10 years on.
Championship Plymouth Argyle 1 - 2 Leeds Utd
Points 46; Position 23 RELEGATED
Points 46; Position 23 RELEGATED
About five years ago I was on holiday in England when I had an accident and suffered a bad cut on my forehead. This was treated by the NHS with reasonable efficiency with no more than giving my name and parents address. I never had any comeback even though I wasn’t a UK taxpayer and I was prepared to cover any bill from funds or insurance.
I’ve had similar emergency treatment in Spain and Germany and have had the same experience.
I’ve had similar emergency treatment in Spain and Germany and have had the same experience.
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margaretcarnes
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Pagey - as things stand at the moment you will get the full amount of pension which applies in 2026 when you apply for it. But no subsequent annual increases.
There was a case about 6 years ago when a Brit resident in Australia challenged this UK pension ruling. As I recall she took the case as high as possible, obviously without success. (Someone might be able to find a link to this?)
Who knows though whether further challenges will result in a change to the law by 2026!
There was a case about 6 years ago when a Brit resident in Australia challenged this UK pension ruling. As I recall she took the case as high as possible, obviously without success. (Someone might be able to find a link to this?)
Who knows though whether further challenges will result in a change to the law by 2026!