I often hear or read about Thai manners and how good they are. Coming from England it’s an interesting subject because we don’t often see good manners back home these days.
I’ve been in Thailand for four years and the first few weeks in Bangkok were a honeymoon period. I went to nice hotels and restaurants and I noticed that the Thai people always gave a ‘wai’ in an exceedingly polite way. I noticed they always seemed quiet and refined. I wondered at first if it was a bit artificial.
Now I’ve been living here a while I’m not sure if I can really say I witness Thai good manners very much. What I think I see is a display of something that might on face value, be seen as good manners, but possibly is for show only. I’ve only just signed-up to this forum and I guess it’s a pity that my first post is about a negative aspect. I would like to hear other people’s views on this however, because I wonder if I am expecting too much.
Also I don’t want to make a comparison with English standards, because that’s pointless -- If Thailand has a reputation for good manners, then it should live up to it, irrespective of how they might compare with those of England.
Perhaps I am just out-of-touch and good manners are something irrelevant in today’s competitive world. If that’s so, then my post is irrelevant to Thailand in particular. Maybe I’m just an old so-and-so and need to change.
But this is what I’ve noticed in particular…
1. Holding doors for people or saying thank you. This is a small thing but I don’t remember a Thai ever holding a door for me when I’ve been walking behind them. Similarly only on a small number of occasions has a Thai acknowledged the fact that I’ve held a door open for him or her.
2. Driving etiquette. There is very little give-and-take on the road in Thailand. It seems to be ‘I will do as I want’ – almost behaving like a child, I would say.
3. Not returning e-mails or getting back to you on the phone. If it’s not just an easy answer, or they don’t know the answer, they seem to just ignore you in the hope you will go away. If the person had good manners, they would apologise and perhaps say “I’m sorry I can’t help you”.
4. Children not being taught good behaviour. Sometimes the Thai children are quite sweet and no trouble at all, despite the fact they do not seem to be taught to behave well. They are often allowed to do what they want and go uncorrected. This I would think shows how one regards the importance of good manners.
5. A love of money. The subject of money seems to be important to Thais and it seems to come first in their actions, rather than accepting that it might be better to honour an agreement instead, or simply to do what’s right. An example of this is how a Thai family will be pleased to take money from their foreign in-law, rather than just go out to work. This seems to be a hot topic for those in a Thai-Western relationship.
6. Many Thai women I’ve spoken to say their ex-husband used to physically beat them. This does not seem to me to be good manners. It seems to be a very common problem in marriages. From what I see, many Thais do not care how they treat others, and this is reflected in how they behave in their relationships. On the face of things, they give the ‘wai’ to people and bow slightly when passing someone, but this doesn’t mean anything if those individuals conduct themselves differently when it’s not in full view.
7. A lack of sincerity and the convenience of lying. Thais seem to be quite comfortable with telling lies. Quite often the lies themselves beggar belief and one wonders why they just didn’t choose the truthful option. The act of lying to someone shows a disregard for that person.
8. Failing to honour a promise. Examples of this include absconding without repaying a loan – even when the loan is very small. It seems to be more convenient to run away from it.
9. Some Thai men seem to enjoy picking their nose in public. Likewise, a lot of men spit on the pavement. I don’t see this as being good manners when other people are in the vicinity. At an outside restaurant in Hua Hin I had the misfortune to sit near to someone who spat into the bushes.
10. Not valuing life. This is perhaps pushing the issue of lack of manners a bit far, I admit, but it surely seems that if one is to regard other people’s safety with any degree of importance, then valuing life is a significant aspect of that. Safety here does not seem to be taken seriously at all. Thai motorists seem to drive with impunity and have little or no regard for the safety of others, likewise do construction workers on the roads and in the building industry. It almost seems as if there is no thought for a potential accident that another person may encounter.
11. Different manners for foreigners and indigenous people. I wonder if there is a different way of thinking when it comes to the treatment of foreigners . It seems that foreigners are welcomed into the country to spend money but have very few rights. To extend rights to foreigners would be a good way for a country to show good manners. There are many examples of this and it’s illustrated from the country’s administration downwards. For instance the inability for a foreigner to own land in his or her own name, unless it’s accompanied by a 40m Baht Stock or Bond investment. Again, it shows that money talks rather than good manners being important. This sets an example to the populace who see that foreigners do not benefit from similar treatment. Possibly this in turn might account for why foreigners are not seen as an equal.
12. The obsession with V.I.P. privileges. You can see this in many places, from the bowling venue in Market Village, the rooms for which are simply just Karaoke rooms, but are instead denoted V.I.P., right up to special treatment for immigration, viz-a-viz the Thailand Elite Card. Recently I noticed how a customer had managed to walk into a music club without paying for a ticket. It was because, in the doorman’s words, “he was a V.I.P.” He was in fact just an ordinary chap and good luck to him to be able to get in free, but it showed that there is a certain status to which is attached a special privilege. A double standard, if you like. And if you don’t have this, then the treatment is different. Again, the manners are only there if you have the status. Genuine good manners of course would be displayed towards anyone, irrespective of their status.
13. The use of the word farang. We’ve all read a lot I am sure, about how this word is not used in a discriminatory way. I have never been especially troubled by it – perhaps just irritated, but I guess there must come a point where Thais start to think for themselves that the word is perhaps unsuitable in the modern world. It does not take a great deal of thought to understand that to show one’s manners in the best way, would simply be to accept someone into a culture and treat them as an equal. But to use the word farang and make a distinction, would surely be in contrast with that.
I have covered many points here and I want to avoid my post being seen as an attack, but instead as an observation. I do not want that to be the case, because of course if we do not like the Thai culture, then we are free to leave and visit another country instead. In my particular case I feel the need to discuss why Thailand has the reputation for good manners, when I personally do not see it beyond face-value. One of the reasons it came to mind was because if you look for information on ‘Thai Manners’ you will find a great many articles indeed, but they all relate to how foreigners should behave when visiting the country. It made me think that it is all very good for the world to know how to behave when visiting Thailand and I wanted to balance this with what I felt about Thai manners. Or lack of them.
Thai Manners
Interesting writing but I think along the way you confuse manners with culture by regarding foreign standards as the only acceptable norm.
Its a bit like some posters on here who bemoan changes where Thais are adopting western aspects of culture.
Maybe they want to ensure thailand stays a living zoo
Its a bit like some posters on here who bemoan changes where Thais are adopting western aspects of culture.
Maybe they want to ensure thailand stays a living zoo
The Answer to number 3 is quite simply to save face.
Its the same as a Waitress or shop assistant appearing to go and get you something and never returning because they didnt understand you in the first place.
Not bad manners, just not being able to admit they dont know something and losing face.
9. Thai People dont see Fat Farangs walking round with no shirt on as good manners but it doesnt stop the ignorant B******s doing it.
Number 10 is because of Buddhism, you die when your supposed to die basically, not because your a lunatic.
All the Amulets and Buddha images in Taxis arent just for show you know, they are far more effective in saving your life than a seatbelt.
12. Surely that happens with any business in any Country, the more you spend the more you get.
Use of Business Lounges for frequent flyers for example.
Its the same as a Waitress or shop assistant appearing to go and get you something and never returning because they didnt understand you in the first place.
Not bad manners, just not being able to admit they dont know something and losing face.
9. Thai People dont see Fat Farangs walking round with no shirt on as good manners but it doesnt stop the ignorant B******s doing it.
Number 10 is because of Buddhism, you die when your supposed to die basically, not because your a lunatic.
All the Amulets and Buddha images in Taxis arent just for show you know, they are far more effective in saving your life than a seatbelt.
12. Surely that happens with any business in any Country, the more you spend the more you get.
Use of Business Lounges for frequent flyers for example.
Last edited by BaaBaa. on Sat May 24, 2008 1:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Hi huahincharlie,
Yeah that was an interesting read. Seem to be about right with your observations, think it's a bitof a mixture between manners, culture and a different education/upbringing to us.
Number 2 about driving, it is madness, but i think i'd choose it (without the level of deaths of course) over the road rage, horn-tooting, hand gesturing, attacks and the like back home.
Number 13 about the word 'farang', it doesn't come across as derogatory to me, but I know it does others.
Where I lived and worked a while back, Hong Kong, the term for us there is 'gweilo', which basically means 'white ghost' or 'foreign devil'.
Literally translated it was 'a dead corpse that has come back to life'. Nice.
But I think you summed it up for me at the end "of course if we do not like the Thai culture, then we are free to leave and visit another country instead"
Cheers,
Yeah that was an interesting read. Seem to be about right with your observations, think it's a bitof a mixture between manners, culture and a different education/upbringing to us.
Number 2 about driving, it is madness, but i think i'd choose it (without the level of deaths of course) over the road rage, horn-tooting, hand gesturing, attacks and the like back home.
Number 13 about the word 'farang', it doesn't come across as derogatory to me, but I know it does others.
Where I lived and worked a while back, Hong Kong, the term for us there is 'gweilo', which basically means 'white ghost' or 'foreign devil'.
Literally translated it was 'a dead corpse that has come back to life'. Nice.
But I think you summed it up for me at the end "of course if we do not like the Thai culture, then we are free to leave and visit another country instead"
Cheers,
Hi Charlie -
Thailand is famous as the "Land of Smiles", not the land of courtesy......
You make a lot of valid points about things that drive us all up the wall constantly, but when in Rome, yada yada......
My Thai wife of 20 years is famous for her daily verdict that "they're not afraid to die" while I'm busy inventing new swear words, but the charm of the Thai people is part and parcel of that devil may care attitude that drives us all crazy.
I will tell you this: Whether your family pays back loans or happily takes handouts, if you ever need them they will be there in full force. I wouldn't trade my Thai friends or family for anything in the world, warts and all.
I'll still be yelling at the stupid drivers tomorrow though..........
Cheers.
Thailand is famous as the "Land of Smiles", not the land of courtesy......
You make a lot of valid points about things that drive us all up the wall constantly, but when in Rome, yada yada......
My Thai wife of 20 years is famous for her daily verdict that "they're not afraid to die" while I'm busy inventing new swear words, but the charm of the Thai people is part and parcel of that devil may care attitude that drives us all crazy.
I will tell you this: Whether your family pays back loans or happily takes handouts, if you ever need them they will be there in full force. I wouldn't trade my Thai friends or family for anything in the world, warts and all.
I'll still be yelling at the stupid drivers tomorrow though..........
Cheers.
HHCharlie
Think you need to live here and soak up the culture and adapt
All your views seem valid but with a western mindset
As for the Wai and a smile, you have to differentiate between a smile on their face and a smile in their eyes
I feel privileged because they say to me 'your not a farang your an Isaan farang'
I don't speak much Thai but my mindset is now Thai. I now have a big problem with communicating with westerners (even my daughters)
Would I go back to western so called civilisation???? No Way
Think you need to live here and soak up the culture and adapt
All your views seem valid but with a western mindset
As for the Wai and a smile, you have to differentiate between a smile on their face and a smile in their eyes
I feel privileged because they say to me 'your not a farang your an Isaan farang'
I don't speak much Thai but my mindset is now Thai. I now have a big problem with communicating with westerners (even my daughters)
Would I go back to western so called civilisation???? No Way
RICHARD OF LOXLEY
It’s none of my business what people say and think of me. I am what I am and do what I do. I expect nothing and accept everything. It makes life so much easier.
It’s none of my business what people say and think of me. I am what I am and do what I do. I expect nothing and accept everything. It makes life so much easier.
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Little treefrog
- Rookie
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Would that mean that we are a like???? I have never been able to communicate with western....richard wrote: I don't speak much Thai but my mindset is now Thai. I now have a big problem with communicating with westerners (even my daughters)
Would I go back to western so called civilisation???? No Way
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margaretcarnes
- Rock Star
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- Location: The Rhubarb Triangle
Thai manners
I think Richard is right there Charlie - its a case of adapting. Go with the flow. Understand the culture - which I think is what you are aiming for.
The term 'farang' has never bothered me. Why should it? In England we refer to people as 'migrant workers' which could be seen as demeaning, but nevertheless is in common use.
The spitting and nosepicking are common to many cultures, but I bet you've never seen a Thai couple kissing and canoodling in public? That is bad manners to them.
Some of your points - like not getting replies - have already been answered by the 'loss of face' fear. Don't underestimate it. Farangs are perceived often as very rich. (How else would you afford to fly there?) and well fed (for obvious reasons.) And we don't need to work to sustain our lifestyle do we!
The lack of holding doors open, and pushing in front, used to bug me as well at first. But I do believe it links with the Thai perception of farangs. They want us to notice them. To be noticed, by whatever means, increases the status.
As for 'loans'. It was once explained to me that there is really no such thing as a loan. That repayment should never be expected or persued - at least when its on a personal level. Again this might be to do with 'loss of face'. After all, to have to borrow money must be an admission of failure, and for someone to expect repayment must indicate that they can't afford to lend it? Just a thought.
There are some good manners in Los that will stay with you. For example - after 3 years back in England it still makes me squirm when people put their feet up and point them in my direction!
The term 'farang' has never bothered me. Why should it? In England we refer to people as 'migrant workers' which could be seen as demeaning, but nevertheless is in common use.
The spitting and nosepicking are common to many cultures, but I bet you've never seen a Thai couple kissing and canoodling in public? That is bad manners to them.
Some of your points - like not getting replies - have already been answered by the 'loss of face' fear. Don't underestimate it. Farangs are perceived often as very rich. (How else would you afford to fly there?) and well fed (for obvious reasons.) And we don't need to work to sustain our lifestyle do we!
The lack of holding doors open, and pushing in front, used to bug me as well at first. But I do believe it links with the Thai perception of farangs. They want us to notice them. To be noticed, by whatever means, increases the status.
As for 'loans'. It was once explained to me that there is really no such thing as a loan. That repayment should never be expected or persued - at least when its on a personal level. Again this might be to do with 'loss of face'. After all, to have to borrow money must be an admission of failure, and for someone to expect repayment must indicate that they can't afford to lend it? Just a thought.
There are some good manners in Los that will stay with you. For example - after 3 years back in England it still makes me squirm when people put their feet up and point them in my direction!
A sprout is for life - not just for Christmas.
Margaret is right, good comment about rude canoodling. As well as exposing gross bodies.
Rude people are everywhere, just rude in different ways.
Its useful to remember that many Thais have a village outlook on things and that means sharing, community property etc. The one with money helps out and it all comes back as the wheel turns.
Two very important facets of Thai life are obligation and face, and some understanding of their place in things is extremely useful.
Rude people are everywhere, just rude in different ways.
Its useful to remember that many Thais have a village outlook on things and that means sharing, community property etc. The one with money helps out and it all comes back as the wheel turns.
Two very important facets of Thai life are obligation and face, and some understanding of their place in things is extremely useful.
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sandman67
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- Location: I thought you had the map?
Hi Charlie
I know I keep plugging it but the book "Good Medicine for Thailand Fever" is a real eye opener and helps understand why Thai culture appears so different to ours.
A lot of the things above come from their cultural upbringing that involves status, face, family loyalty, etc. Also most people here are Buddhists and believe in karma and predestination.
The education system in Thailand is pretty poor, which in turn causes a lot of problems. They are taught to learn by rote and not reasoning....my lad ran into problems at school recently because "he asks to many questions" and that is seen as being disruptive in class ..... obviously I moved his schooling elsewhere. Most kids leave school at 14.
I compare my adopted son and daughter with my niece and nephew back in the UK ..... one pair is respectful, (mostly) obedient, and well mannered when in company or at home. The other pair are vastly better educated but also are ill mannered, rude, and greedy.
One pair will grow up and carry on looking after mama and papa. One pair will, in all likelihood, be too busy chasing the next gadget or status symbol to care.
Guess which is which.
I know I keep plugging it but the book "Good Medicine for Thailand Fever" is a real eye opener and helps understand why Thai culture appears so different to ours.
A lot of the things above come from their cultural upbringing that involves status, face, family loyalty, etc. Also most people here are Buddhists and believe in karma and predestination.
The education system in Thailand is pretty poor, which in turn causes a lot of problems. They are taught to learn by rote and not reasoning....my lad ran into problems at school recently because "he asks to many questions" and that is seen as being disruptive in class ..... obviously I moved his schooling elsewhere. Most kids leave school at 14.
I compare my adopted son and daughter with my niece and nephew back in the UK ..... one pair is respectful, (mostly) obedient, and well mannered when in company or at home. The other pair are vastly better educated but also are ill mannered, rude, and greedy.
One pair will grow up and carry on looking after mama and papa. One pair will, in all likelihood, be too busy chasing the next gadget or status symbol to care.
Guess which is which.
"Science flew men to the moon. Religion flew men into buildings."
"To sin by silence makes cowards of men."
"To sin by silence makes cowards of men."
Behind the smile is great and nice,
Beware of what is in her eyes.
Looks like fun but she's after you,
It's not so funny what that smile can do...
Behind the smile there lies a face,
Filled with cunning but is full of grace.
Comes on friendly but is deadly too,
Beware for she'll take care of you...
An innocent soul well it hurts
I'm so nieve, that's all you ever see
Behind the smile you cannot see
Lies another fool in misery
Don't be fooled by that friendly grin
The jaws of death are going to draw you in...
Call you in...
Whitesnake - "Behind The Smile"
Beware of what is in her eyes.
Looks like fun but she's after you,
It's not so funny what that smile can do...
Behind the smile there lies a face,
Filled with cunning but is full of grace.
Comes on friendly but is deadly too,
Beware for she'll take care of you...
An innocent soul well it hurts
I'm so nieve, that's all you ever see
Behind the smile you cannot see
Lies another fool in misery
Don't be fooled by that friendly grin
The jaws of death are going to draw you in...
Call you in...
Whitesnake - "Behind The Smile"
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huahincharlie
- Member
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- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 10:51 pm
Many thanks to all for the feedback – I was relieved to read that my post was taken on good terms, as after sending it I began to feel quite heartless. And this morning I went into the town and found everyone to be especially polite and considerate. I couldn’t stop thinking about the negative things I’d written.
I have been adapting to Thailand for some time now, but four years isn’t as long as many people here, I admit. I have a lot of fond memories of being here and I certainly don’t feel like heading back home. I guess I will give it another four years and then decide
Some Thai people have said they feel I am slightly Thai now. I don’t believe a word of it. But I have lived here on my own for some periods of time and had to cope with it. I travel between Hua Hin and Bangkok and take care of everyday things, so I must be settling in to some extent. But I liked your comment about being accepted as an Isaan Farang, Richard. That’s very nice to hear. In fact that’s partly what my post was about – being accepted. If I’m honest there is still a lot of Englishman in me and I could adapt more to Thailand but on the other hand I don’t really want to lose my Englishness. A lot of the things I enjoy are simply not here – not available at all.
T.I.G.R. mentioned the point about the Land of Smiles not being the Land of Courtesy. Yes, you’ve hit the nail there. I think courtesy would have been a better title for what I posted in fact. I haven’t looked in the dictionary for the difference between manners and courtesy. I guess there must be a difference, but certainly I think courtesy is the thing Thais find difficult to understand. Now I’m thinking about the stickers on the rear-end of H.G.V.s in UK – “If this vehicle is being driven discourteously…”. That would be a laugh here wouldn’t it? Can you imagine – Toyota should put that sticker on the back of every new Vigo pick-up!
I was glad to see that someone else has found sometimes Thais do not call you back, or e-mail a reply, or return to help you in a shop. I understand they don’t want to admit they can’t help you, but why is that? I can’t see their problem. Baa Baa said ‘it’s not bad manners, but just not being able to admit’. I don’t think I agree there. If ignoring you and wasting your time while you’re fruitlessly waiting for nothing, isn’t bad manners, I don’t know what is. I think in this case the Thais just have to “grow up” and stop behaving like children. An English friend of mine once claimed that when the Thais reach twelve years of age they stop growing up. That kind of trait, where you can’t face up to something you can’t do, is just plain childish. If that’s an inherent social trait with Thais, then how are they ever going to compete in the global commercial world we’re becoming? There are plenty of other people from different cultures who are much more reliable and more willing to do the job. Thailand will suffer as a result, because of this social weakness. Do they expect to remain a tourist destination and fruit exporter and nothing more? That’s a very uncertain economy for a country. We’re making a lot of excuses for Thai people. We do it because we like it here of course. But they are their own fools because the capabilities of a particular country are important in international commerce. Compare this with India and it’s success with the I.T. support and development industry. It’s hard to foresee Thailand embracing a market like that.
I have read the book “Thailand Fever”. I’m not sure if it’s the same book you mention, Sandman, or if “Good Medicine” is perhaps a different one. Anyway I read the former title three years ago and it did help me to understand. I’m not sure all the traits mentioned in the book were quite so accurate. The section that deals with helping people, financially for example, gives the impression that the giver will receive the payment back several-fold. In other words not only receiving the loan but being continually repaid in the future, albeit in other ways.
My point about the obsession with the term V.I.P. was sparked off by seeing the term emblazoned here and there. Although I accept Baa Baa that this treatment is everywhere else too, such as in frequent flyer lounges at the airports, Thailand doesn’t seem to mind that it is drawing attention to someone’s status in everyday places. It’s not that I’m an especially politically-correct individual, but in the West I think we would try to avoid highlighting someone’s status too much, to the exclusion of all others and making a big thing about it. The problem with highlighting status is that it surely could be considered bad manners, because by doing so it is likely to offend others. Do the Thais think in that way? No, of course not. So it’s also an issue with equality I have with Thailand. The West has benefited from education and this shows significantly when there are issues of equality.
I was in conversation with a Thai lady who came to my home and she said to one of my friends who happens to enjoy cooking, that she could teach her how to cook. The woman hadn’t first ascertained if my friend was already a good cook and didn’t need her advice. This is a good example I think of the Thai approach. They will ignorantly assume that if someone is good at something, they must unquestionably be better than everyone else and that other people will benefit from their advice. This is a potential social taboo, but Thais don’t see it!
Is the question of manners partly one of education? When I’ve dealt with well-educated Thais in Bangkok (for example), I have most definitely seen a big improvement in the level of courtesy and their acceptance of foreigners. Never have I heard the word farang used in those circumstances, and the conversation has always been in English, even though they know I speak reasonably fluent Thai. However, I also know that among the more affluent Thais there will be examples of snobbery and bad manners too. But still I believe the better manners partly come with a better education.
The better education often results in greater mobility and therefore exposure to people from alternative cultures, which the less well-educated might not necessarily have access to. By being in contact with people from other countries, and more particularly, with developed countries, it isn’t difficult to see the social benefit. If the less well-educated tend to remain in their own culture, continue to sit on the floor to eat and mix only with their own social circle, then I would think it is far more difficult to progress.
I was dating a Thai lady last year and one night I went to a party with her, together with her brother. On the way home we stopped at “Seven” and bought a few provisions. The brother put his items on the counter in front on me when I was paying, and stepped back. To be fair to him, they were for the children, and one of the children belonged to the lady I was seeing. They were also only twenty Baht, so nothing to bother. But it still shocked me slightly, and I’ve seen a few calls on my finances before. I didn’t feel it gave a good impression for the future, of the way things might go in the relationship.
I never used to mind too much about the term farang, but I have been here some time now and I’ve taken the trouble to learn to speak Thai on a conversational level. I can read and write Thai to some degree also and I always make a point of avoiding speaking English. I do this because I feel that to be accepted into a country, I really have to try to speak the language. So I feel that perhaps it is time, after a couple of decades or so of foreign visitors coming to Thailand, the word farang is consigned to the dustbin. I laughed when I saw your word Gweilo, Super Joe. I know that term too, a ‘devil person’. But the basis for the word farang is quite childish anyway, coming from the term used to describe French colonists in the late 1800s, whose name they pronounced as ‘farangset’. The Thai language does have a word for foreigner, and it is ‘chow taang chart’. Of course the word is less convenient to say, but that shouldn’t matter if Thais want to give a better impression. After all, we refer to them specifically as ‘Thai’ and not more loosely as ‘Asians’. Would they like be called Asians? I’m not sure they would. After all, they often look down on some of their Asian neighbours.
As I said in my original post, I never used to question the term farang, but one night at a family gathering with my previous Thai lady, I realised that her brother-in-law was referring to me in conversation simply as ‘the farang’. My ability to understand Thai was not so good back then. It took me some time to realise what he was saying but I felt quite hurt by it, rather than using my proper name. It made me feel that it was not accepted into their family.
No, the driving isn’t safe but there aren’t the road-ragers here, like Super Joe says. I agree on that one. I think it’s fine here if you keep looking at the road and constantly think of possible danger. Any mistakes on the road don’t seem to be taken so personally as they do back home, so I accept it’s better in that way. Sadly a lot of Thai people you speak to have lost relatives on the road – that is really common.
I’m glad you made the point Margaret, about seeing people pointing their feet in England. I have never liked feet being pointed, even before I ever visited Thailand. But I am seeing a few Thais ignoring this social taboo and it surprises me. Often perhaps it’s when they’re asleep in the street, and have their legs sticking out into the pavement. I guess I should let them off in that case if they’re asleep! But there are others who do it. I really don’t like it when they sit in a restaurant and cross their legs on the chair. It’s because they’re used to sitting like that on the floor, and when they go to a restaurant they continue to sit in the same way. I find it a bit disgusting personally, to see their dirty feet sticking up at me.
There are some gross sights, like you mention Baa Baa – foreigners without a shirt. Some look really terrible and I am embarrassed to be a Westerner sometimes, because I know the Thais don’t like some of the things Westerners do here. I also blame some Westerners in part for Thailand’s sleazy reputation.
So I guess I will stay in Thailand, as after all I’ve managed it for over four years, but I’m not sure I will accept some of the things the Thais do, or don’t do. I do not particularly want to accept some of the traits – if I do so that will indicate a change in me too. I think the Thais are too different and certainly on a relationship level I’d prefer to be with someone from a similar culture who’s better educated and more thoughtful.
My previous Thai girlfriend said one day, when I was suffering with a headache, “you’ve been thinking too much in your mind”. I laughed my head off at the time. But it was something I’ve never forgotten and I think it possibly sums up a lot of Thais – they just don’t want to think. It’s too difficult and they believe it makes their head hurt.
I have been adapting to Thailand for some time now, but four years isn’t as long as many people here, I admit. I have a lot of fond memories of being here and I certainly don’t feel like heading back home. I guess I will give it another four years and then decide
Some Thai people have said they feel I am slightly Thai now. I don’t believe a word of it. But I have lived here on my own for some periods of time and had to cope with it. I travel between Hua Hin and Bangkok and take care of everyday things, so I must be settling in to some extent. But I liked your comment about being accepted as an Isaan Farang, Richard. That’s very nice to hear. In fact that’s partly what my post was about – being accepted. If I’m honest there is still a lot of Englishman in me and I could adapt more to Thailand but on the other hand I don’t really want to lose my Englishness. A lot of the things I enjoy are simply not here – not available at all.
T.I.G.R. mentioned the point about the Land of Smiles not being the Land of Courtesy. Yes, you’ve hit the nail there. I think courtesy would have been a better title for what I posted in fact. I haven’t looked in the dictionary for the difference between manners and courtesy. I guess there must be a difference, but certainly I think courtesy is the thing Thais find difficult to understand. Now I’m thinking about the stickers on the rear-end of H.G.V.s in UK – “If this vehicle is being driven discourteously…”. That would be a laugh here wouldn’t it? Can you imagine – Toyota should put that sticker on the back of every new Vigo pick-up!
I was glad to see that someone else has found sometimes Thais do not call you back, or e-mail a reply, or return to help you in a shop. I understand they don’t want to admit they can’t help you, but why is that? I can’t see their problem. Baa Baa said ‘it’s not bad manners, but just not being able to admit’. I don’t think I agree there. If ignoring you and wasting your time while you’re fruitlessly waiting for nothing, isn’t bad manners, I don’t know what is. I think in this case the Thais just have to “grow up” and stop behaving like children. An English friend of mine once claimed that when the Thais reach twelve years of age they stop growing up. That kind of trait, where you can’t face up to something you can’t do, is just plain childish. If that’s an inherent social trait with Thais, then how are they ever going to compete in the global commercial world we’re becoming? There are plenty of other people from different cultures who are much more reliable and more willing to do the job. Thailand will suffer as a result, because of this social weakness. Do they expect to remain a tourist destination and fruit exporter and nothing more? That’s a very uncertain economy for a country. We’re making a lot of excuses for Thai people. We do it because we like it here of course. But they are their own fools because the capabilities of a particular country are important in international commerce. Compare this with India and it’s success with the I.T. support and development industry. It’s hard to foresee Thailand embracing a market like that.
I have read the book “Thailand Fever”. I’m not sure if it’s the same book you mention, Sandman, or if “Good Medicine” is perhaps a different one. Anyway I read the former title three years ago and it did help me to understand. I’m not sure all the traits mentioned in the book were quite so accurate. The section that deals with helping people, financially for example, gives the impression that the giver will receive the payment back several-fold. In other words not only receiving the loan but being continually repaid in the future, albeit in other ways.
My point about the obsession with the term V.I.P. was sparked off by seeing the term emblazoned here and there. Although I accept Baa Baa that this treatment is everywhere else too, such as in frequent flyer lounges at the airports, Thailand doesn’t seem to mind that it is drawing attention to someone’s status in everyday places. It’s not that I’m an especially politically-correct individual, but in the West I think we would try to avoid highlighting someone’s status too much, to the exclusion of all others and making a big thing about it. The problem with highlighting status is that it surely could be considered bad manners, because by doing so it is likely to offend others. Do the Thais think in that way? No, of course not. So it’s also an issue with equality I have with Thailand. The West has benefited from education and this shows significantly when there are issues of equality.
I was in conversation with a Thai lady who came to my home and she said to one of my friends who happens to enjoy cooking, that she could teach her how to cook. The woman hadn’t first ascertained if my friend was already a good cook and didn’t need her advice. This is a good example I think of the Thai approach. They will ignorantly assume that if someone is good at something, they must unquestionably be better than everyone else and that other people will benefit from their advice. This is a potential social taboo, but Thais don’t see it!
Is the question of manners partly one of education? When I’ve dealt with well-educated Thais in Bangkok (for example), I have most definitely seen a big improvement in the level of courtesy and their acceptance of foreigners. Never have I heard the word farang used in those circumstances, and the conversation has always been in English, even though they know I speak reasonably fluent Thai. However, I also know that among the more affluent Thais there will be examples of snobbery and bad manners too. But still I believe the better manners partly come with a better education.
The better education often results in greater mobility and therefore exposure to people from alternative cultures, which the less well-educated might not necessarily have access to. By being in contact with people from other countries, and more particularly, with developed countries, it isn’t difficult to see the social benefit. If the less well-educated tend to remain in their own culture, continue to sit on the floor to eat and mix only with their own social circle, then I would think it is far more difficult to progress.
I was dating a Thai lady last year and one night I went to a party with her, together with her brother. On the way home we stopped at “Seven” and bought a few provisions. The brother put his items on the counter in front on me when I was paying, and stepped back. To be fair to him, they were for the children, and one of the children belonged to the lady I was seeing. They were also only twenty Baht, so nothing to bother. But it still shocked me slightly, and I’ve seen a few calls on my finances before. I didn’t feel it gave a good impression for the future, of the way things might go in the relationship.
I never used to mind too much about the term farang, but I have been here some time now and I’ve taken the trouble to learn to speak Thai on a conversational level. I can read and write Thai to some degree also and I always make a point of avoiding speaking English. I do this because I feel that to be accepted into a country, I really have to try to speak the language. So I feel that perhaps it is time, after a couple of decades or so of foreign visitors coming to Thailand, the word farang is consigned to the dustbin. I laughed when I saw your word Gweilo, Super Joe. I know that term too, a ‘devil person’. But the basis for the word farang is quite childish anyway, coming from the term used to describe French colonists in the late 1800s, whose name they pronounced as ‘farangset’. The Thai language does have a word for foreigner, and it is ‘chow taang chart’. Of course the word is less convenient to say, but that shouldn’t matter if Thais want to give a better impression. After all, we refer to them specifically as ‘Thai’ and not more loosely as ‘Asians’. Would they like be called Asians? I’m not sure they would. After all, they often look down on some of their Asian neighbours.
As I said in my original post, I never used to question the term farang, but one night at a family gathering with my previous Thai lady, I realised that her brother-in-law was referring to me in conversation simply as ‘the farang’. My ability to understand Thai was not so good back then. It took me some time to realise what he was saying but I felt quite hurt by it, rather than using my proper name. It made me feel that it was not accepted into their family.
No, the driving isn’t safe but there aren’t the road-ragers here, like Super Joe says. I agree on that one. I think it’s fine here if you keep looking at the road and constantly think of possible danger. Any mistakes on the road don’t seem to be taken so personally as they do back home, so I accept it’s better in that way. Sadly a lot of Thai people you speak to have lost relatives on the road – that is really common.
I’m glad you made the point Margaret, about seeing people pointing their feet in England. I have never liked feet being pointed, even before I ever visited Thailand. But I am seeing a few Thais ignoring this social taboo and it surprises me. Often perhaps it’s when they’re asleep in the street, and have their legs sticking out into the pavement. I guess I should let them off in that case if they’re asleep! But there are others who do it. I really don’t like it when they sit in a restaurant and cross their legs on the chair. It’s because they’re used to sitting like that on the floor, and when they go to a restaurant they continue to sit in the same way. I find it a bit disgusting personally, to see their dirty feet sticking up at me.
There are some gross sights, like you mention Baa Baa – foreigners without a shirt. Some look really terrible and I am embarrassed to be a Westerner sometimes, because I know the Thais don’t like some of the things Westerners do here. I also blame some Westerners in part for Thailand’s sleazy reputation.
So I guess I will stay in Thailand, as after all I’ve managed it for over four years, but I’m not sure I will accept some of the things the Thais do, or don’t do. I do not particularly want to accept some of the traits – if I do so that will indicate a change in me too. I think the Thais are too different and certainly on a relationship level I’d prefer to be with someone from a similar culture who’s better educated and more thoughtful.
My previous Thai girlfriend said one day, when I was suffering with a headache, “you’ve been thinking too much in your mind”. I laughed my head off at the time. But it was something I’ve never forgotten and I think it possibly sums up a lot of Thais – they just don’t want to think. It’s too difficult and they believe it makes their head hurt.
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margaretcarnes
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Thai Manners
An interesting and well reasoned response Charlie. Thankyou. I'm sure we don't think you were being too harsh. But maybe you are in fact becoming more 'Thai' than you realise? It can be scary.
As for 'Britishness' and class differences in Los - I think we forget that less than 70 years ago there were clear class differences here as well, and kids were lucky to stay on at school past 13 or 14.
Maybe we are expecting them to catch up too quickly?
As for 'Britishness' and class differences in Los - I think we forget that less than 70 years ago there were clear class differences here as well, and kids were lucky to stay on at school past 13 or 14.
Maybe we are expecting them to catch up too quickly?
A sprout is for life - not just for Christmas.
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Wanderlust
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As has been said, interesting and well thought out posts and responses huahincharlie. One thing I'd like to pick up on, as it does seem to bother you particularly, is the use of the word farang. You are correct in its origins, and I didn't realise there was another word for foreigner in Thai, so thank you for sharing that. With the example you quote that irked you, I agree that they should have used your name when referring to you in conversation, but it is possible that they either couldn't pronounce it or had forgotten it. Add to that that they didn't think you could understand what they were saying and I doubt any slight was intended - all they likely wanted to do was find out more about you. On a more general level, the word farang is used much in the way some might say 'foreigner' or 'tourist' in the UK; if we saw a group of people getting off a bus in a tourist spot in the UK, we wouldn't discern necessarily which country they were from if we were to make a remark about them I don't think; or if we tried to we might easily get it wrong, mistaking (for example) a group of Koreans for a group of Japanese. One thing that is very different I think, between the English speaking nations (ESN) and most others is that the ESN people will normally (arrogantly) assume that everyone understands what they are saying, while the non ESN people will assume the opposite, which is why polite speaking is regarded as good manners in the ESN but is not thought important elsewhere when talking about foreigners; a lot of this is to do with how much immigration has occurred in certain ESN of course.
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margaretcarnes
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Thai Manners
Good point Wanderlust. I recently returned from my second trip to Denmark where I have family. Remembering peoples names, as well as the wierd pronunciation, can be daunting. Its easy though for me to say ' sorry - I've forgotten your name' . But for a Thai that would be difficult due to the perceived loss of face.
A sprout is for life - not just for Christmas.