Business Ethics.

[huahinsimon]

Ethnics

so more than just one 300 baht adjustment is needed

Oh don't do it then. Complaining about it for the next 5 year will be much more productive.

We couldn't fix it if we wanted to Joe, Mr. No-nonsense sicked the MIB on HuaHinDolly and forbade us to enter the property under threat of arrest for tresspass. He sent her the below photo with the taunting caption "A Brush with the Law.



Simon, what is that 6ft wide x 3ft high bit of cardboard hanging underneath your window ?

I just can't see how you are normal.
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Will be answered in my reply to a previous post of yours.

HHS

[PKBCXKT]

Hi all,

I am the new guy around to join this forum. I put a little introduction on the intro page "Sticky" poll, for whoever might be interested.

I am involved in the Hua Hin real estate market and followed the watersaga as well as this new thread and I hope I will be able to deliver some input.

I will not go back to all the old stories concerning salads, A's or god knows whom, there are many. I believe, as sad as it is, these stories have to be dealt with the people who were cheated or did not get delivered what they ordered and the developers in question by themselves.

The point is to look forward and ensure that these kind of things do not happen again. So, I think this thread should be about discussions of what can be done to prevent this in future.

That gets me to Jockey, who says it is only talked about the one bad one but not the 100 good ones. I cannot agree on that, as the one bad one can seriously damage the reputation of Hua Hin as a retirement or second home base. A few month ago some comments from a local paper, which unfortunately were extremely generalized, reached as far as Europe. This has to be avoided by all means. One bad mushroom spoils the whole soup.

Khun T.I.G.R. I could not agree more with you. In fact a few month ago there was an initial meeting between government officials, some developers, 2 agents and some unhappy customers. The official side declared a clear interest to set up a body to regulate the real estate market here. Unfortunately several of the top officials have been replaced in the meantime. Anyway, there was another meeting a few weeks back
with 3 developers the newspaperman and us. It was a factfinding mission
on how and what should be done to assure a certain code of conduct within the real estate sector.

We, as being involved can do a lot, but the question is who will follow. There are still quite some gold diggers around. One thing is for sure, if whatever body is to be set up it has to have official involvement and support and that has to be declared very definate by top government officials.

Within the next few weeks we will have other meetings on how to proceed and all the real estate related parties will be invited to a, call it "brainstorming".

Internally we already set up some guidelines, just for us to be strictly followed such as, title search (if not 100% clean and clear we will not touch), building permit (dto), EIA approval where necessary, detailed BOQ for new developments, ans so on.

We are working now to set up a independent team of structural and archtictural engeneers to do checks on developments or finished products who want to list. This also is mentioned by T.I.G.R.

There a lots of things to be done and in order to be sucsessful we do need a lot of input and support and also many joining developers and agents.
The guidelines have to be tough, but it definately will benefit the ones who adhere to them. Those then should be issued a whatever "sign" from the provincial government identifying them as qualified developer or agent.

Hope for heaploads of input.

Actually I could go on and on, but I think I just leave it at this for the time being.

[sargeant]

HHS glad to see you have some sense of humor left

However and this not a go at you personally (and may not apply to you)but when i joined this forum the property wars were rising to full swing. My sister had just come on holiday and after 2 WHOLE WEEKS wanted to buy. I took it on myself personally to pull push force cajole the property persons to declare their self interest and answer questions some of which still havent been answered to this day and took a lot of flak for it
Declaration i have no dealings in property of any kind whatsoever and never have
However I and in conjunction with Wanderlust Buksida Dawn and others the advice from this forum was overwhelmingly
COME RENT FOR A YEAR BEFORE EVEN THINKING OF BUYING.
That is vital advice because in the first year you will learn do not trust anyone least of all people of any race making money from you.Do not take as read anything said to you without verifying it through at least one other impartial experienced source.
It is also vital because in your year renting you will learn the correct prices and when you do buy you can oversee every shovel brick and grain of sand.
WHY is that important because most companys will have a Thai fronting the farang and in court it will be you versus a thai that is like putting your own dick in the mincer and turning the handle yourself and paying for their pleasure watching it
I just hope those idjits that come on a 2 week package holiday read this and listen before diving in boots first

I live in a 2 bed town house your 13.5 million would have bought one complete side of the street 17 houses and 34 bedrooms water bill per month for all of them 1700Bt max
Saying all that i sympathise but sympathy aint gonna fix your problems unfortunately
Best of luck

[T.I.G.R.]

PKBCXKT -

Thank you for the kind words and the information you posted. I was beginning to think no-one was really interested in actually solving problems today with the posts I'd seen so far.

I would be interested, as I'm sure others would, to hear how things progress, and if there is anything I can do to assist please feel free to PM.

Best regards and good luck.

[Jockey]

PKBCXKT -

That gets me to Jockey, who says it is only talked about the one bad one but not the 100 good ones. I cannot agree on that, as the one bad one can seriously damage the reputation of Hua Hin as a retirement or second home base. - Sorry I don't understand your point. What don't you agree about?

Anyway, there was another meeting a few weeks back with 3 developers the newspaperman and us. - Who appointed you? Do you think developers are the right people to be setting this up considering its developers who need to be checked? Seems to me to be a self appointed quango to ensure even more corruption exists. Developers and Estate Agents should be regulated, not regulators. Another Friar Tuck & Mr Athena initiative per chance?

[PKBCXKT]

Khun Jockey,

if I got your message interpreted right, I read in it that we should forget about the one bad one, but talk about the 100 goods ones. That is what I cannot agree with.

At the moment we do not need to be appointed, we do it for ourselves out of sheer necessity and hope to spearhead a motion which would help to make Hua Hin a place in future where people can buy properties without having to worry about the bad things in the past.

Some of the developers present adhere to the strictest standards already and they still agree to being checked by independent surveyours in the ongoing construction. What is wrong with that? You have to start at a high level in order to clean up the substandard ones. Anyway, soon everyone will be invited and then can voice their opinions as well, as they can do here on this thread.

We definately are not self appointed, but put these high standards forward to the developments we represent, who nobody refused as yet.
Please understand that is just for us at this stage, but would be fantastic for the whole area if adopted by others.

May I ask who should we corrupt? Ourselves? That would be pretty stupid wouldn't it?

If you read my first posting cleary, I explicitly was asking for governmental acceptance and support and regulation as well.

Believe me, I have nothing to do with them, apart from having attended that first meeting where Tuck was present but not salad.

pk

[huahinsimon]

Promised I'd get back to you. Previously Joe wrote:
________________________________________

simon, this is an honest perspective as a developer myself.
under the law, the 'posessor' has the responsibility to mitigate such issues,wherever reasonably practicable. Yes, i know we should do it.

i know your developer one of the biggest in town, i know for a fact he builds quality houses, delivers on time and most are happy, as we do according to the customers.

Many customers have made a lot of dough from his houses. There may be some isolated issues, which usually get resolved. You wont scream your way into getting things done. Your lack of skills in dealing with people in a rational way is your downfall, IMO.
Your developer is a no-nonsense guy but delivers, maybe with the odd defect, show me a new-build that doesnt.

i think you need to stand back and take a look at yourself, actually ztand across the road take a look at those two bedsheets hanging out your bedroom window with complaints written on them and ask yourself if thats normal

_________________

The possessor? I’m not the possessor of the well or water system. The developer put the well behind walls with no enterance door. You have to bring your own ladder if you want to get in! The developer obviously wants to keep control of the water. Why? So he can demand a few thousand baht from each customer now and then? Or torment them? Maybe TIGR can shed some light on this control of utilities issue.

[Admin Edit: Specifics removed]

Isolated issues? I think not, eg T.I.G.R.

A “no-nonsense guy” eh, Joe. What do you call a bogus 8772 baht water bill, and demand for payment in 48 hrs? Nonsense or no-nonsense. What do you call not responding to my reply and demonstration that the bill is incorrect? Nonsense or no==-nonsense? What do you call sending an email to a friend saying specifically he was using the phony bill as grounds for cutting off my water when I didn't pay it? Nonsense or no-nonsense? And then cutting it off? What do you call those actions, Joe, Nonsense or no-nonsense? Let's ask the folks in forumland, What do you call that kind of arbitrary action, nonsense, no-nonsense, or something else?

You've asked several times about whats hanging on my house?

For the record, I'll show the folks.


You asked if hanging such signs is NORMAL? I don't know Joe, but I can tell you I wasn't smart enough to think of this myself. I got the idea from splitlid on anothr thread about utility mongering.

splitlid wrote

a friend of mine had similar problems in Bangkok on their estate but with the roads and communal recreation areas not being in place. the developer refused to do any works.

the community got together and made banners advertising their homes for sale, but on each banner they stated why they were selling. ie. developer not supplying the promised goods.
they had no intention of selling BUT anyone viewing the development to purchase a house from the developer were quickly put off by all the for sale banners!!!!
the developer rapidly changed his game play!

Actually the first time I used it, I got my water back on ASAP. Second time has not been a charm.

But is it normal? Probably as normal as a rich man cutting off the water of some poor, foolish, retired peasant couple, whom the whole town is laughing at and who don't have a dollar in their pocket, based on a bogus bill, and probably as normal as the Picasso water system.

BTW, we have dozens of similiar emails from our tormenter ranging from the absurd to the surreal to the threatening. Here is an excerpt from one he sent to his friends and had the goodness to copy us: "these people are not good and I wish them no good. I don't believe in god but I pray at night that bad things happen to these people and if he continues to try to discredit me something bad will happen. I am very upset and angry about this whole subject and I will put a stop to it."

If HHD and I have an "accident" .....

HHS

[Super Joe]

The possessor? I’m not the possessor of the well or water system. The developer put the well behind walls with no enterance door

You have 'owner' and 'possessor'. The possessor uses something. If you are aware of a issue (your bacterial water) you have an obligation to mitigate it whereas reasonably practicable. If you keep using it knowing it's infected, then have a problem, you won't get anywhere. Please don't interpret this as me saying any defect is your responsibility. I was led to believe before, due to your photos etc that you had access. Now we read about tresspassing.

In my experience carrying on the way you do does not get things done for you or ensure a stress free life. But you have a right to do what you want.

Bet the residents in your local area love them signs
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[Super Joe]

We are working now to set up a independent team of structural and archtictural engeneers to do checks on developments or finished products who want to list.

PK,
We were at the first meeting and on the whole I think it's going be a good thing. It is optional though and developers can still perform as before outside this arena.
Am I right in thinking the main role of the structural engineers and architects is to help with dispute resolving when it arises, as well as checks as you've already said.
What I'm getting at is there are no plans for any construction codes/standards is there ?

Cheers,

[kendo]

Please guys, dont get to personal, i started this thread to understand more about business in HH and how things are changing for the better or for the worst, it was actually inspired from a comment that Buksida made on the Pattaya thread.I am looking for good and nagative experiances of business ethics and dont want this to be a platform to slag each other off in a real personal way,there has been some very good comments so far, but this does seem to be going down the route that Dawn has allready warned you about, and i dont want my thread to be pulled as i look upon this as a little bit of research for maybe, selling up and starting a new life and business in HH, this forum is a goldmine of info, more posters please comment.

[PKBCXKT]

Hi Joe,

yes, I also believe it will be a good thing. Yes of course, everybody can do as they wish, by joining or not joining whatever "entity" which might or might not be formed. However, I do hope that we do get many participants who would agree to perform on highest levels of construction, service and ethics. That in conjunction with the provincial governments backing "hopefully" will raise the general standard of this industry.

Regarding the structural and architectural engeniers I only can speak for ourselves, and we will use them to oversee developments under construction which we represent. We will not involve them in dispute resolvings. However we would be happy to forward their contact if needed but that would be a different story and handled by the person asking for a survey and the surveyours and has nothing to do with us.

However, if there ever would be a body set up, with the support and involvement of the provincial government, then in that body could be included a department of dispute resolving, whereas I do believe that should we ever have such a body it hopefully would not be necessary anymore. And yes, if such a body could be implemented the long term goal has to be to set up a code of conduct regarding construction, service and ethics.

pk

[heretostay]

seems a bit far fetched to involve the municipality in anything, there the biggest gangsters in hua hin next to the police.

in 3 years here, they have done nothing until a brown envelope has been produced.

thats why some estates have lovely roads leading to them and roads in general in hh are full of pot holes.

how can they regulate anything, when the one with the most money, will get all the green lights.

what about all they have promised.

1) knock down the piers ( 1 million baht says they stay up)
2) railway crossing and new railway road.(oops the police chief has a bar there!!)
3) clean up the beaches ( clean if you dont look at the sewage from the hilton)

[PKBCXKT]

hertostay,

if you read my posting clearly, I always talked about provincial government, meaning Prachuap Kirikan.

If we want to succeed we have to go to the top, may be even Bangkok.

By the way, in Bangkok and the Eastern Seaboard there are already some organisations similar to what we want to do and apparently operating quite sucessfully. We will be trying to get in touch with them as well and get more infos on how they are doing things.

If there are more such initiatives we all could join together and approach Bangkok, for may be some regulations like we have in Europe or the States or Australia.

pk

[Super Joe]

heretostay,
the architects, structural engineers, lawyers etc will be getting paid, obviously. The developers pay, so they will want to work as much as possible I would have thought.
For any concerns about them 'being paid by developers, so they'll work for the developers', they are responsible to the provincial governor, district officer and other bigwigs. Your 'average' developer isn't going to make a fuss and say he ain't paying the governor's architect anymore. If you don't pay you are not part of it.
The government officials are owners of this body and are forming it to represent and protect the buyers, they don't want anymore bad press in Bangkok, I doubt they care two hoots about farang developers making money while contravening the FBA and whether or not we have to fork out some money if a dispute went against us.

Jockey's andothers observatoins about developers self-regulating is a legitimate one, first thing I thought of.
At the initial meeting there were developers, but also some happy buyers and some buyers who had been involved in cases we've all read about. All had equal input to the meeting.
They invited along a selection of developers who they understand do things 'properly' and me
They wanted input from the developers of what we do so it canform guidelines for all. As these developers already do all this as a matter of course, they don't need to 'water-down' the guidelines. It would be in these developers' interest to set as stringent requirements as they can, to limit the competition included.

Their lawyers will be setting standard contracts that aren't loaded in the developers favour.

Here's a massive plus for the buyer, the body's engineers and lawyers will decide a dispute, if developer loses he can't say "no I don't accept, sue me", unless he want's to be out and the next day dragged into those proceedings we've read about.

This is just my understanding of how it should function, I'm realistic enough to know we should wait and see what actually materialises.
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[Super Joe]

HHS wrote:

some foolish, retired couple, whom the whole town is laughing at

That's not true Simon, I met a bloke in U-Turn the other night who had never heard of you.
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