Diesel to NPG conversion..?

[thaiger]

Now this is a topic that doesn't fit anywhere else, so I post it here...
Did any of you expats convert your Diesel truck to NPG here in HH? If yes, how did you go about it? I'm interested in all the details, where, how much, how long, did it hurt? Also how is your truck performing now, how much do you really save? - Thanks in advance!

[Nereus]

Now this is a topic that doesn't fit anywhere else, so I post it here...
Did any of you expats convert your Diesel truck to NPG here in HH? If yes, how did you go about it? I'm interested in all the details, where, how much, how long, did it hurt? Also how is your truck performing now, how much do you really save? - Thanks in advance!

First up, are you referring to LPG or CNG (or NGV as the Thais insist on calling it) ?

I do not know what "NPG" is. In any case the conversion on a small "pickup" type of engine will only involve a system that uses a mixture of whatever gas, and the original diesel. To convert such an engine to run ONLY on gas is not practical. Suggest you Goggle it as the web is full of basic information.

[STEVE G]

In Korat the other day there was a company with a display offering such a coversion for diesel pick-ups so it is possible, but I didn't enquire about the price.

[Guess]

I have been doing some research myself on this. The conversion of a diesel engine can be done for 50K according to a Thai English Language web site. I have also heard of local mechanics doing it themselves.

What seems to be the favoured way forward is to use a blend of Liquefied Natural Gas and Diesel. You will have to do the maths to see how long before you get your return on investment. During that time NGV could of course go up with demand.

It is not the magic solution to fuel costs that it first seems.

There is another topic that covers this already.

[Nereus]

In Korat the other day there was a company with a display offering such a coversion for diesel pick-ups so it is possible, but I didn't enquire about the price.

Yes, it is technically possible Steve, just not really practical on a small scale. In Thailand, with the abundant supply of secondhand petrol engines of every discription, a cheaper option is to replace the diesel engine with a petrol and convert that to either LPG or NGV.

[thaiger]

You're right, I shoulda done my homework first before asking that question. Guess, if this topic was covered already somewhere else, I'd be grateful for a link since I didn't see it.
I was under the impression that gas and Diesel engines would use different gasses. This here link was quite informative:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/types-of- ... hannel.htm
I copied some of the more interesting parts below.
Seems that prices for natural gas have been stable and since there's no run on conversions that it will stay that way.
"Natural gas prices have exhibited significant stability compared to oil prices. Historically, natural gas prices have exhibited significant price stability compared to the prices of petroleum-based fuels. This stability makes it easier to plan accurately for long-term costs."
Seems that there's some confusion not only on how the stuff works but also how it's called. As Nereus points out NPG doesn't apply here and the NGV mentioned seems to stand for Natural Gas Vehicle which runs on either CNG or LNG.
"CNG is often confused with liquefied natural gas (LNG). While both are stored forms of natural gas, the key difference is that CNG is in compressed form, while LNG is in liquefied form. CNG has a lower cost of production and storage compared to LNG as it does not require an expensive cooling process and cryogenic tanks. CNG requires a much larger volume to store the same mass of gasoline or petrol and the use of very high pressures (3000 to 4000 psi, or 205 to 275 bar)."
"Many long-haul trucks and buses run on a different form of natural gas called liquefied natural gas, or LNG. LNG is made by refrigerating natural gas to -260°F, condensing it into a liquid. The liquid form is much more dense and thus has more potential energy for the amount of space it takes up. That means more energy can be stored in the same amount of space on a car or truck."
"Advantages and Disadvantages
The biggest advantage of NGVs is that they reduce environmentally harmful emissions. Natural-gas vehicles can achieve up to a 93 percent reduction in carbon monoxide emissions, 33 percent reduction in emissions of various oxides of nitrogen and a 50 percent reduction in reactive hydrocarbons when compared to gasoline vehicles. NGVs also rate higher in particulate matter 10 (PM10) emissions. PM10 particles transport and deposit toxic materials through the air. NGVs that operate in diesel applications can reduce PM10 emissions by a factor of 10."
"Disadvantages
One of the biggest complaints about NGVs is that they aren't as roomy as gasoline cars. This is because NGVs have to give up precious cargo and trunk space to accommodate the fuel storage cylinders. Not only that, these cylinders can be expensive to design and build -- a contributing factor to the higher overall costs of a natural-gas vehicle compared to a gasoline-powered car."
"Another drawback is the limited driving range of NGVs, which is typically about half that of a gasoline-powered vehicle. For example, Honda's natural gas Civic, the Civic GX, can go up to 220 miles without refueling. A typical gasoline-powered Civic can go approximately 350 miles without refueling. If a dedicated NGV ran out of fuel on the road, it would have to be towed to the owner's home or to a local natural gas refueling station, which might be harder to find than a "regular" gas station.
Finally, it should be noted that natural gas, like gasoline, is a fossil fuel and cannot be considered a renewable resource. While natural gas reserves in the United States are still considerable, they are not inexhaustible. Some predict that there are enough natural gas reserves remaining to last another 67.1 years, assuming that the 2003 level of production continues."
Interesting comment from Nereus is that the cheapest way would be to convert from Diesel to Otto and use LPG. Since that's too expensive for our three new Diesel trucks I'm still looking for a reliable place that can convert for less than 50K...

[Guess]

...Guess, if this topic was covered already somewhere else, I'd be grateful for a link since I didn't see it.

I think covered was a bit of an overstatement. Broached more like on http://www.huahinafterdark.com/forum/bi ... t9407.html

I was under the impression that gas and Diesel engines would use different gasses.

So was I but you are checking technical websites which is what I would do myself. What I do know is that Petrol/Gasoline engine are quite fussy about what you feed them and their fuel ignites at a lower pressure than Diesel. It is also about 14% less efficient per litre than Diesel fuels. I accidentally put half a tank of Petrol in a diesel one day and then called a mechanic friend and the roadside recovery service. They both told me the same story. So long as the mix was not more than 50/50 the engine would continue to run albeit less efficiently. There was some loss of power and the Diesel knock seemed to get louder but the vehicle was still running 30,000 Miles later. The consumption difference was unnoticeable.

Seems that there's some confusion not only on how the stuff works but also how it's called. As Nereus points out NPG doesn't apply here and the NGV mentioned seems to stand for Natural Gas Vehicle which runs on either CNG or LNG.

Yes that is my confusion too. I was only aware of LPG until recently. This has had great benefits in the UK for about 10 years now but requires a separate tank. A great advantage is that you can switch from LPG top Petrol while the engine is still running.

"Disadvantages
One of the biggest complaints about NGVs is that they aren't as roomy as gasoline cars. This is because NGVs have to give up precious cargo and trunk space to accommodate the fuel storage cylinders. Not only that, these cylinders can be expensive to design and build -- a contributing factor to the higher overall costs of a natural-gas vehicle compared to a gasoline-powered car."
"Another drawback is the limited driving range of NGVs, which is typically about half that of a gasoline-powered vehicle.

This is really because motor cars have always been designed around Gasoline/Petroleum. The only research into capacity and location of fuel tanks that I am aware of is with regards to safety. If manufacturers start from the drawing board with higher capacities of fuel storage in mind. There is still vast amounts of space wasted in a motor car if you compare it to many jet aircraft where every bit of space is used for fuel. I can see a future with more MPV type vehicles. designed around a fuel tank.

[STEVE G]

As was highlighted in a recent article, both these gases are heavily subsidised to provide cheap cooking fuel but if more people start using it for motoring they will have to sell it at market prices which would destroy most of the benefits.

[Nereus]

The following is another thread on here: http://www.huahinafterdark.com/forum/lp ... t9053.html

I would be very wary about who you let loose on converting any vehicle, regardless of the system you choose. To be honest I would only consider one of the bigger companies in Bangkok.

Contact K. Apisit at Super Central Gas in Bangkok. He speaks good English, and if you have the time just go and visit their falcilty, it is an eye opener. hp # 081 372 8878
They have a web site as well: www.scggroup.com

I have no connection with them, but was very satisfied with their work.

[VincentD]

A couple of friends have gone ahead and done a conversion of their petrol-engined vehicles to run on LPG. The conversion runs about 40,000 + baht. The consensus is that LPG is much easier to get than CNG, and the tank takes up less boot space. Note that the LPG system is not compatible with the CNG system and vice versa.

Apparently the extremely high demand for CNG by the taxi and minibus operators often cause the pumps to run out of gas quite often too. Queues are extremely long and it takes quite a while to top up as compared to petrol. So you could queue for an hour or more, and still not get fuel...

Note that there could be additional problems with the insurance companies.

[barrys]

I've been checking up on this for my Honda City.

I spoke to the place in Bangkok and they would charge 44,000 for LPG conversion (Italian system) or 54,000 for CNG.
I was told that CNG fuel is now available in Hua Hin but I don't know exactly where.

I've also found another company doing conversions on the main Pethkasem Road about 2 km south on the left past the Prachuabkirikhan main intersection traffic lights.
They're called S.S.P. Auto Service, tel. 032-601253.

I went there and they look very professional.
They offered me 2 systems: a Polish system for 37,000 or the same Italian system as above for 42,000.

CNG fuel apparently costs 8.5 b per kg at presesnt,
LPG 11 b per litre equivalent.

The guy in Bangkok old me they expect the price of LPG fuel to rise more quickly than CNG, because the Thai government is subsidising CNG.

Mind you, they used to subsidise diesel as well, but that's gone now.

Also note that both places have a 1 month + waiting list.

So what's it to be: LPG or CNG???

[Guess]

It looks like NGV is a generic term that covers all motor vehicles that can run on natural gas derivatives.


http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/06 ... 074899.php (useful article)

http://www.clicksmartcar.com/ngv001.htm (Thai language information)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle (terminology explained and overview)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_petroleum_gas (not considered to be NGV as it is a crude oil derivative. LPG cover many different mixtures but mainly Propane and Butane.

[Nereus]

It looks like NGV is a generic term that covers all motor vehicles that can run on natural gas derivatives.


http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/06 ... 074899.php (useful article)

http://www.clicksmartcar.com/ngv001.htm (Thai language information)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle (terminology explained and overview)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_petroleum_gas (not considered to be NGV as it is a crude oil derivative. LPG cover many different mixtures but mainly Propane and Butane.

Yes, that is basically correct Guess. The Thais insist on calling CNG, NGV. (in the same manner that they call petrol or gasoline BENZINE!)
What they are using is CNG (compressed natural gas), not to be confused with LNG, which is the same gas but compressed further until it liquifies.

LPG is a by-product of refining crude oil, and is stored as a liquid at a relatively low pressure, and is an entirely different product.
Both products are available in Hua Hin.

[thaiger]

Even the abbreviations are confusing, LPG, NGV, CNG, LNG... seems like the easiest way to remember is NG for natural gas (or PG for petroleum gas) and then put either an L for "liquefied" or a C for "compressed" in front of it - if petroleum gas and natural gas is the same...
Now what's a Polish system compared to an Italian system? Doesn't sound too confidence-inspiring either way...
I still don't know if a Diesel runs on NG since it's burning oil and not gasoline. Then there's the question if it's worth the investment for the conversion if the NG prices go up - you get a lot of Diesel for 30000 THB! If they triple like the gas/diesel prices, I'd be stuck with less space, less fuel stations and less fuel range.

[Guess]

I still don't know if a Diesel runs on NG since it's burning oil and not gasoline.

As I said in an earlier post Diesel engines are less fussy. I have seen a diesel truck filling up recently with NG but I don't what modifications are needed and the cost. It is possible that using it mixed with Deisel that no mods are needed.

Then there's the question if it's worth the investment for the conversion if the NG prices go up - you get a lot of Diesel for 30000 THB! If they triple like the gas/diesel prices, I'd be stuck with less space, less fuel stations and less fuel range.

30000 Baht gets me 10,000 KM at today's prices so if I could halve my fuel costs I would get my return in 12 months.