An Observation in LOS

[johnnyk]

Mr. T is from Chiang Mai, no mystery why he's popular there.
He is popular is the rural areas because of 30 baht health care among other things.
Never mind whether its ultimately sustainable or not (its not in France, the UK or elsewhere in the long run).
What matters is that people living on 5-6000/month can see a doctor or dentist for 30 baht whereas before they just suffered for the most part not knowing what was wrong with them.

The above is not to be construed as endorsement or support in any way.

[buksida]

A few comments so far:

Firstly yes, Mr T gave health care to the masses, his only memorable and redeeming effort in 6 years. He also defrauded the country of tax on 2 billion dollars personal profit from one business deal - how many hospitals for the rest of Thailand would that have built? Give a little, take a lot and you're a hero!

the people in the countryside can get anyone into power they want because there are so many of them and then the people in Bangkok can protest to get rid of them because they are near the seat of power.

That is a good summary though I disagree with the Bangkok objecting to parties supporting the rurals because they want money in Bangkok. Its not only Bangkok that are anti-govt, the south are also and there are a lot of Thais there. Thaksin also went on record and stated "I'm not helping them, they don't vote for me". That is what is objectionable, the populist govt will only appease their vote base and ignore the rest of the country.

As far as preaching to the masses this is irrelevant because PAD are not politicians, Sondhi owns media companies and Chamlong is military. It is Abhisit and the Democrats that should go up to Issan and do some conversions. They have never done so as they don't have the financial backing of TRT/PPP to give out all the envelopes that are required to win those provinces.

Again it all comes back to education and the rurals will vote/support anyone that offers them a short term freebie - only education will solve this and blind dependence on superstition and religion. No populist party has ever been interested in increasing education standards. If they did they would probably lose their vote base who would wise up to their tactics, though this is likely to take another generation or two so we're stuck with this futile cycle for at least 20 years.

Finally I knew we'd get one stupid "they are Thai, we are farangs, if you don't like it go home" type comment - yes which is why we can have an intelligent civilized discussion about it without burying our heads in the sand.

[lomuamart]

I'm just trying to be devil's advocate here, but if Sondhi et al aren't politicians, then they should get off the stage. In my view, they certainly are political - and there's nothing wrong with that.
I wonder what would happen in our "land of freedom" if opposition parties parked themselves in Parliament Square for a month. It simply wouldn't happen and they'd be moved on. They also wouldn't have their own television station to broadcast events 24 hours a day - admittedly it's been closed down in many provinces, but not HH. So, good for Thailand on those issues.
However, I'm getting a bit tired of a minority who, after losing an election, seem to cry about it. There are injustices everywhere in politics and life and there always will be.
There is a huge north/south divide in Thailand, but it's my contention that until the opposition parties actually try to take their beliefs to the masses and their opposition, nothing will ever change in this country.
I'll probably get shot down in flames for the above, but I do fundamentally believe that nothing will change as long as the opposition - PAD, Abhisit et al, continue to churn out the same old messages to the same old converted people.
It's time for a change and that must begin at grass roots level up in the fields. Power to the people.
I'll retire now as the fuse burns.

[chelsea]

Johnny K, I did not realise that he was from up there. But what you have posted is exactly the reason that my friend says he is so popular, amd will only see good in what he has done (even now)

[Chas]

Great discussion here so far and I am following it with interest.

I have learned a lot so far that I didnt know and the various viewpoints on the current political situation here have been fascinating. The discussion hasn't (yet) that I can see anyway, been marred by idiots who think the only alternative to discussing any Thai problem is to leave. ( That brainless "love it or leave it" shit just doesnt fly. I am American and I have had that said to me in a discussion of American politics. . .makes me livid!) )

A rational and wide-ranging discussion of the political situation in ANY country ought to be possible for a bunch of educated and interested people. .and we have good reason to be interested in Thai politics because for most of us, this is home. ( I have no other home.)

Of course we cant DO SOMETHING about it. But neither can we DO SOMETHING about the situation back in England ( which has gotten considerable discussion here lately) nor can I, with my one vote, realistically DO SOMETHING about America. But that doesnt mean we cant discuss things and try to figure out what is going on in this country we love. I agree Buksi,

yes which is why we can have an intelligent civilized discussion about it without burying our heads in the sand.

I also agree that education is the key. It is also the key in American politics. The "educated" states. .those that were blue and Democratic in the last election are those on the two coasts, especially the big cities where you find people who have traveled and who know something about the world . . .not the hick farmers in Iowa who have never been off the farm and who after all put this idiot Bush into power. A simplification . . .of course, but there is an interesting parallel there.

[lomuamart]

I'm half way through the book "Thaksin - the business of politics in Thailand."
I hope this is not a banned book here! Don't think so.
Anyway, the book is not flattering so far. Thaksin's early political career was full of misinformation - "my Mum and Dad were poor Chinese immigrants" etc etc. The reality was that the family - third generation Chinese - went through a bad patch for three years, but Thaksin and his family were wealthy. The money came from noodle shops, cinemas, mediocre hotels and land deals through influence. Dad got into politics and within a generation the family were very powerful in Chiang Mai. Etc etc.
Thaksin's rise to power was prone to distaster - his initial business efforts all failed. So much for the successful businessman. However, he kept at it and after choosing a "profession" with the police rather than the army, he struck gold by correctly anticipating computers and all that and got the lucrative contract that propelled him upwards.
An interesting book. I've got to read the later half some time.

[Wanderlust]

I think we have to be careful in this discussion about categorising voters into 'uneducated Thaksin supporters' and educated opposition supporters', as it is both insulting to the Thais and in my opinion a wrong assessment. The ideal political system is that people vote for the good of the whole country rather than any short term gains they might make as an individual, but the reality is generally people vote selfishly, not just in Thailand but everywhere. Of course the idea is that if the country prospers, so do the individuals, but many people do not look at the long term, so vote for cheap health care now, rather than the establishment of a better run and better equipped system in the future. In the UK people vote for whoever promises the biggest tax cuts, and rarely think 'oh hang on that means the local hospital/school might have to close'. In the end every voter should remember the old adage 'you get what you pay for' and my personal favourite 'if it seems too good to be true, it is'. Poor education does of course play a part but I think that is on both sides, and allows the educated elite of both sides to lead their followers like sheep, and I hope it is not like lambs to the slaughter with the protests in Bangkok, as it has been before in Thailand. I agree with buksi that it is going to take a long time to change, but I also worry about what will happen if the calming influence and buffer of the monarchy is no longer there, which seems to me to be the unstated aim of Thaksin. I fear that we could witness the rise of another power mad dictator if it was allowed to happen.

[STEVE G]

I’ve noticed that up in Issan, certainly in my partner’s village, there are a few students who have managed to get themselves into universities in Bangkok and other cities, either from scholarships or with family support so there is some improvement in education going on, although perhaps slowly.
This tends to mean that there is at least more than one point of view when it comes to political discussion in the village.
Of course if Thailand follows the trends of how nations tend to develop, more and more people will move to the cities from the countryside and eventually you will get to a point where those left in the countryside will be the wealthier landowners and everybody else will be in suburbia.
At this point you will have done away with the big divide in the population, but obviously this could take a long time to happen in Thailand.

[lomuamart]

Agreed STEVE G,
I think you go close to where I used to in Issan. Namely, Nang Rong, Pakham and all those of places.
I havn't been up to the village for a number of years, but even last time it was getting "educated". The village elder wasn't so verbal on the microphone every day. The farangs, including myself at the time, were moving in. I've heard that the "old village" is now packed out with SUVs, big houses and a diaspora of locals going to Bangkok and other big cities - hopefully for the right reasons.
Who's educating who?

[buksida]

A rational and wide-ranging discussion of the political situation in ANY country ought to be possible for a bunch of educated and interested people. .and we have good reason to be interested in Thai politics because for most of us, this is home. ( I have no other home.)

Of course we cant DO SOMETHING about it. But neither can we DO SOMETHING about the situation back in England ( which has gotten considerable discussion here lately) nor can I, with my one vote, realistically DO SOMETHING about America. But that doesnt mean we cant discuss things and try to figure out what is going on in this country we love.

My thoughts exactly, frustrating as it is.

The current demonstrations are primarily against motormouth Samak and Thaksin's proxy government (who did not win by outright majority, they needed to 'persuade' other parties to form a coalition).

PAD fear that should they (PPP) continue the country would be turned into a republic with Thaksin as the president. They are using this Khmer temple saga as leverage though I actually agree with the govt on that one - it belongs to Cambodia.

A lot of the outcome hinges on the monarchy though we can't really discuss that. There will be some interesting times ahead for Thailand.

[Guess]

I agree entirely with the Khun T Chiang Mai connection. The Chart Party only get support from the are where the leader comes from. Isan was bought with small potatoes compared to the amount embezzled by Thaksin.

As for current support for PAD is concerned. The rally has to be held somewhere and only a fol would not hold it in Bangkok. Firstly there are twenty million people within commutable distance of Bangkok most of whom do not originate in Bangkok.

The greatest support for Democracy is in South Thailand with Prachuap being the border province. Many people at the rally have travelled up from the South to lend support to PAD. What I have noticed this time is that support is being extended to what used to be TRT strongholds.

My perception is that the Bangkok attitude is I'm alright Jack. They have employment and relative prosperity compared to some of their country cousins.

My wife also is glued to ASTV news 24 hours per day.

How long can the PM carry on?

[Spitfire]

Think you're about right buksi, there are some interesting times ahead for Thailand. The dark clouds are gathering, both economically and politically and the old saying that 'The apethy party has won' may well be applicable here in the not so distant future.

By the way, must say, great posts everyone.