Electric Vehicles (EV) Thread

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Nereus
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Re: Electric Vehicles (EV) Thread

Post by Nereus »

Dannie Boy wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:07 am
brianks wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:16 am The math I used to determine the cost of the gas vs hybrid amounted to a 100,000 thb difference between the cost of fuel for the gas vs gas savings for hybrid. Combine that with a battery that is beyond its shelf life at 10 years and the conclusion isn't hard to arrive at. AND to say nothing of getting in a crash and having the hybrid repaired and having to replace the very expensive battery because it is unrepairable.
Dream on and buy your EV or Hybrid and after 10 years we can compare the cost of operation and see who is right. The answer could be Hydrogen, but the cost of the fuel manufacture is way too high now. When they get a hydrogen car that can make its own fuel, then we have a real breakthrough.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, I think you’re being far too pessimistic in your views about battery life. There’s no argument that batteries do degrade over time, however I’m not aware of many/any examples where suddenly after 10 years the battery gives up completely, it’s more of a steady gradual decline. I drive an MG HS PHEV which when new about 26 months ago, had a range of 67km. Now at just over two years old, the range when fully charged is 65 km - I make that 2km drop equivalent to about 3%, so after 10 years (assuming a linear drop-off) will be about 15% and a range of about 57km. Assuming these figures are accurate, I’m relatively happy!!
The problem is that Lithium battery degradation is not linear. There are too many variables that influence the life of ALL batteries, not just Lithium. How many EV cars are there in use today that have achieved a battery life of 10 years?

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/2.1271915jes

https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/article ... d1cp00359c
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Re: Electric Vehicles (EV) Thread

Post by Dannie Boy »

Far too technical for me - this is a more real-life explanation
https://www.geotab.com/uk/blog/ev-battery-health/
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Re: Electric Vehicles (EV) Thread

Post by Nereus »

I personally have nothing against EVs, afterall most of my working life has been based around electrical equipment. Right now they are not an option for me, as I now live in a Condo, and it is a big enough problem just getting some water, never mind an EV charging point!

What continues to be overlooked in this thread, where some posters make unsubstantiated claims, can perhaps be explained in a couple of the following articles.
Human Psychology plays a big, and mostly overlooked, part in what decisions we make. And in this thread the majority are older people that MAY be set in their ways of thinking, which makes it more biased.

How a cognitive bias is blocking the rise of electric cars
Underestimating battery autonomy is a major psychological barrier to buying an electric car.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 125638.htm

The popularity of electric vehicles is evidenced by the broad range of manufacturers presenting new models of plug-in hybrid and battery vehicles. However, the success of the revolution or, rather, the rebirth of electric vehicles, is hanging by a thread, as it lacks the involvement of a large number of users, and many psychological mechanisms hinder it.
https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/13/2/719

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _intention (cannot copy and paste this article)

The Individual Green-Washing Effect in E-Mobility: Emotional Evaluations of Electric and Gasoline Cars
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10 ... 94844/full

This posted as a discussion point, rather than a biased opinion!
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Re: Electric Vehicles (EV) Thread

Post by caller »

I saw a Grab taxi in Bkk last week, proudly displaying it was an EV. t's a pity that changes to Grabs contracts with drivers are making them harder to get and more expensive.

Then in The Mall in Korat yesterday, I had the opportunity to look at BYD models on display. I was prettty impressed with the interiors and build quality. Very modern and unusually for Thailand, light and airy.

I am curious why or how the Chinese are able to invest / import EV's here, whilst others are limited to brands already in Thailand? The chooice here is so limited.

By the by, there's a guy on a watch forum I use, in a thread about motors, talking of EV's. He's on his 3rd and is a fan. His first was a jag, which he got shot of quick, his 2nd was a Tesla, he said he could have sold it for a 3k profit immediatly had he chose to, but wanted the car. He went onto describe it as the biggest load of poo he has ever owned. Sold it, and is now on his 3rd EV, I can't recall what it is, I can check later, but he is finally happy with his car!
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Re: Electric Vehicles (EV) Thread

Post by STEVE G »

caller wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:54 pm I am curious why or how the Chinese are able to invest / import EV's here, whilst others are limited to brands already in Thailand?.....
It's because of a bilateral trade deal between China and Thailand with a 0% import tax on EVs.
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Re: Electric Vehicles (EV) Thread

Post by caller »

STEVE G wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:44 pmIt's because of a bilateral trade deal between China and Thailand with a 0% import tax on EVs.
Thanks - so does that mean Thailand are exporting EVs to China?

Ah, seems not. Old article, but it appears someone has sold their soul to the devil.

https://www.nationthailand.com/tech/30399581
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Re: Electric Vehicles (EV) Thread

Post by caller »

More woes for EV drivers in the UK. Some interesting stats in this Times report as well.

The new parking fine coming for electric car owners

Rising electricity costs and the introduction of punitive penalties at charging points are taking the shine off electric car ownership

They used to be celebrated as the greenest of cars which could cost nothing to charge, little to park and attract a big tax break when you bought one. But electric car owners are facing a new penalty — the introduction of fines and extra fees if they spend too long at electric charging points.

One driver left his van charging overnight at a service station on the M4, expecting to pay £26, and was horrified when an overstay charge of £123 was levied earlier this month.

From April 1, a new £30 penalty will be charged for those staying for more than an hour in Aberdeen. In Sheffield, the charge will be £20 from the same date. Similar charges have been introduced across most of the Highlands since the start of the year.

In London, ESB Energy has an overstay fee of £8 at 350 charge points after an hour. At GeniePoint, you pay an overstay charge of £10 after 90 minutes, and £10 for every 90 minutes after that.

For some time, Tesla has had an overstay fee of 50p or £1 per minute on its network, depending on how busy the charging station is, while Liberty Charge takes an extra 8p per minute.

The fees have come as a nasty shock to electric vehicle (EV) drivers who were initially encouraged by the government to switch from petrol or diesel with tax breaks and free supermarket and council chargers, but have had to stomach swingeing increases in the price of power.

Even the most rapid chargers take longer than filling up a car with fuel, and the rise of overstay charges means that drivers may not want to risk leaving their car plugged in while busy with other activities, such as shopping or going to a restaurant or cinema.

Paul Jackson, chief executive of The Miles Consultancy, which advises firms on how to cut costs on company cars, said the charges are catching out one in six motorists each month.

He said the van driver on the M4 — whose employer was a client of Jackson’s consultancy — was aggrieved because his employer refused to pay the levy.

The driver insisted he had no choice but to charge overnight because he could not interrupt his work to top up the battery during the working day. “Do you want me to get up at 2am to pick it up?” the driver asked.

There are more than 1.15 million plug-in cars, including both electric and hybrid cars, registered in the UK but fewer than 40,000 public charge points. EV drivers become frustrated if they arrive at charging bays to find a petrol or diesel car parked there, or an electric car which is already fully charged.

The cost of installing chargers, and connecting them to the National Grid, is also so high that charge point operators cannot afford to have them lying idle. It costs £1,000 to £2,500 to install a slow charger in a lamppost; £30,000 to £40,000 for a rapid charger at 50 kWh; and £50,000 to £60,000 for an ultra-rapid charger.

Neil Isaacson, chief executive of Liberty Charge, which will have 4,000 sockets by the end of the year, said: “We have to make sure that our network is available as close to 100 per cent of the time as possible because that is the only way we are ever going to get a return on investment.”

Melanie Shufflebotham, co-founder of Zap-Map, an app used by EV drivers to search for charge points, said: “The introduction of overstay or idling charges makes sense on high-powered rapid chargers where charging time is short and it is important that the chargers are freed up for other EV drivers.” But she said motorists should not be “unfairly penalised” for using low-powered chargers as part of their daily routine. Motorists without driveways or off-street parking are already paying much higher prices than those who can charge up at home.

Quentin Willson, a former presenter of BBC TV’s Top Gear and founder of FairCharge, a campaign group, said: “EV drivers understand the need for idler fees and they will be the first to say, ‘Right, I’ve got to shift my car.’ It’s absolutely right to do that because somebody else needs to use the charger.

“What we don’t want is a predatory parking industry coming into this and seeing it as a revenue opportunity.

“We should be giving free parking to EVs, not saddling them with more costs. Let’s grow this, not sabotage it.” Hugo Griffiths of Carwow, an online marketplace for new and used cars, warned of a “Wild West landscape of piecemeal parking policies” and said the government may need to standardise fines.

Andrew Till, who appears on YouTube as Mr EV, believes the charging industry has “painted itself into a corner. You’re telling people that it’s easy to charge because you could just charge while you’re parked, but now you are saying: ‘Don’t park too long. You have to get back to your car and move it’.”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/new- ... -kqvdzrt9f
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Re: Electric Vehicles (EV) Thread

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April 1st? I wonder...........................
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Re: Electric Vehicles (EV) Thread

Post by STEVE G »

caller wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:52 pm
STEVE G wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:44 pmIt's because of a bilateral trade deal between China and Thailand with a 0% import tax on EVs.
Thanks - so does that mean Thailand are exporting EVs to China?

Ah, seems not. Old article, but it appears someone has sold their soul to the devil...
Yes of course, but that makes Chinese EVs an incredibly good deal in Thailand!
Take it or leave it, you can always keep giving money to the Middle East for fossil fuels and see how much Thailand benefits from that.
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Re: Electric Vehicles (EV) Thread

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Do you really think that your not giving money to the Middle East if you buy a EV? Where does the electricity come from? The whole "Green" think is flawed but most can't see beyond the buzz work.
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Re: Electric Vehicles (EV) Thread

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brianks wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:11 am Do you really think that your not giving money to the Middle East if you buy a EV? Where does the electricity come from? The whole "Green" think is flawed but most can't see beyond the buzz work.
More and more electricity is coming from renewable sources, so therefore the ME is getting less and less - the trend is for more electricity to come from renewable sources in the coming years!!
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Re: Electric Vehicles (EV) Thread

Post by brianks »

Yes, but how long will that take? About as long as it will take to develop enough charging stations to support all the electric vehicles politicians want sold. Great talking points but so far only that. In the future the dreamers and futurists will come to grips with reality especially here in Thailand.
We need to watch Norway where the vast majority are driving EV's and see how the "experiment" pans out in the future.
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Re: Electric Vehicles (EV) Thread

Post by Dannie Boy »

brianks wrote:Yes, but how long will that take? About as long as it will take to develop enough charging stations to support all the electric vehicles politicians want sold. Great talking points but so far only that. In the future the dreamers and futurists will come to grips with reality especially here in Thailand.
We need to watch Norway where the vast majority are driving EV's and see how the "experiment" pans out in the future.
You’re obviously not up to date with current UK electricity generation - take a look at this factual document

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/01/ ... hydropower.

And this one speculates what it might be by 2030

https://www.argusmedia.com/en/news/2309 ... f%20supply.


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Re: Electric Vehicles (EV) Thread

Post by STEVE G »

brianks wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:11 am Do you really think that your not giving money to the Middle East if you buy a EV? Where does the electricity come from? The whole "Green" think is flawed but most can't see beyond the buzz work.
My plan is to stick solar panels on the carport, they don't cost much anymore and there is plenty of sun in Thailand. The most I ever drive in a day in Hua Hin is about a 100km and on average about 25km so all charging would be done at home. There seems to be a fixation with finding negatives about EVs but being able to drive for nothing seems to me to be a pretty big positive.
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Re: Electric Vehicles (EV) Thread

Post by caller »

STEVE G wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:22 pmYes of course, but that makes Chinese EVs an incredibly good deal in Thailand!
But how is Thailand benefitting? I can see that the Chinese are benefitting.
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