Today's articles; sounds bad:
PARLIAMENTARY MAYHEM
Policy reading creates a bloody mess
source: The Nation Published on October 8, 2008
Two dead, 400 hurt after police crackdown sparks day of clashes with PAD protesters
Two people are dead and about 400 were injured after a crackdown on protesters at Parliament early yesterday sparked a day of rioting in central Bangkok.
The Somchai government's move to use force to clear the way for the prime minister to read its policy statement in Parliament created mayhem on the streets.
Angry mobs attacked and shot at police, but violence came out from both sides.
Dozens of protesters were injured in the initial crackdown just after dawn, then many police were hurt in clashes through the day - stabbed, shot and crushed by a truck driven by protesters.
A bomb exploded in front of Chart Thai Party headquarters, killing a man, hundreds of metres from Parliament.
The Jeep Cherokee vehicle was thought to belong to a member of the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD), the loose coalition of conservative elite and business opponents backing the prolonged protest against the government, which they damn as a proxy of deposed premier Thaksin Shinawatra.
Police said an unknown man was killed instantly when the bomb went off, and he may have accidentally ignited the explosion.
The first clash in front of Parliament occurred at about 6.30am as police tried to clear a way for the MPs and senators to a session to hear the Somchai government's policies. Protesters had surrounded Parliament since Monday night.
More than 70 of protesters were injured, including Thanya Kulkaeow, who lost his left leg, and two others, who lost a foot and a hand, respectively.
Officials could not explain how tear gas canisters could hurt protesters so critically. Doctors said such injuries were caused by a powerful explosive. And there was speculation that unknown parties launched a grenade or device from behind the police line.
Further clashes occurred after the parliamentary session as police tried to clear the way for ministers and MPs to leave the compound.
Protesters later began to use force against officials. The first police casualty was Pol Sgt Maj Taweep Klanniam, who was stabbed by a sharp flagpole. He was rushed to an intensive care unit at Phramongkutklao Hospital.
"A flagpole pierced his right rib and went deep into his liver," the hospital's public relations chief Dr Pirapol Pokpong said.
Three police were injured as protesters fired shots at them during a clash in front of the Parliament. The wounded police were locked in the Parliament building for hours as protesters blocked the gate.
PAD spokesman Suriyasai Katasila said the gunmen were not members of the group and maintained a claim that PAD protesters never used violence.
Police Captain Kraingkrai Tinsamee, deputy superintendence at Tao Poun station, was injured when a protester drove a pickup truck on him while he met with colleagues at U-Tong Nai intersection. He was still unconscious late last night.
More rounds were fired at about 7pm at the Metropolitan Police headquarters, injuring at least four people including Police Major General Kosin Bounsrang, deputy commander of Border Police, who came to help maintain law and order in the capital.
One woman died after being admitted to Ramathibodi Hospital.
It was a bloody way to start a new government.
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Powerful explosive' destroy man's leg
source: The Nation October 8, 2008
Police insist they only used tear gas to disperse protesters outside Parliament yesterday but a hospital chief said some of the injuries could only have been caused by "powerful explosives".
Vachira Hospital director Dr Chaiwan Charoenchokthavee said some protesters' wounds were not likely to be the result of police use of tear gas against members of the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD).
"Judging from wounds of the victims we saw in the operation room, we believe the wounds were not caused by tear gas," Chaiwan said.
Doctors said the wounds were caused by powerful explosives, which could destroy tissue and bones.
Some 61 PAD protesters were treated at the hospital yesterday: 34 men and 27 women. Most had wounds on their bodies.
Nearly a third - 17 - had to undergo surgery for severe wounds. They included Bancha Boonkaew, a 50yearold man who lost a leg.
Chaiwan said Bancha's left leg was destroyed by a powerful explosive - not tear gas - and the medical team had had to remove it.
"We could not save his left leg," he said. "We are trying to treat complications, which could cause severe strain on his heart," he said.
A 47 year old woman said she was near to Bancha and a minute after police fired tear gas into the crowd of protesters, she saw Bancha's leg bloody and destroyed by an explosive. Chap Polpakdee, 80, from Chumphon, said his thumb was injured by cement sent flying by the explosion.
Ubonwan Boonyoprapas, 47, said she saw 100 teargas canisters thrown into the crowd of protesters, when her right leg was hurt.
"Why did they [police] use tear gas to disperse us? We did not have any weapons to fight them. We had only handclapping devices," she said.
Ubonwan travelled from Chanthaburi province to join the antigovernment protest on Monday morning.
Somchai SaengArunsilp, 43, from Bangkok, said he was shot in the right shoulder by a rubber bullet. Some of his shoulder tissue was destroyed.
"The situation should not be like this. I did not think police would use violence to disperse us.
"The government should take responsibility for this," he said.
There had been no sign from the police that they would use tear gas to disperse demonstrators and no negotiations with the protesters, he said.
Chaiwan said Her Majesty the Queen had expressed worry about the police's use of tear gas to disperse antigovernment protester. She has donated Bt100,000 to Vachira Hospital and took all the injured under royal patronage.Bangkok Metropolitan Administrative (BMA) permanent secretary Pongsak Semsan said he had urged all hospitals in Bangkok to be alert for victims of violence and provide immediate emergency care. In response to the Queen's appeal, he said BMA would take responsibility for the cost of victims' medical treatment.
Meanwhile, Public Health Ministry records showed some 108 people were injured, with 21 treated at seven hospitals. Nine people were admitted at Vachira Hospital, two at the BMA hospital, two at Chulalongkorn Hospital and eight at Ramathibodhi.
Permanent secretary for Health Dr Prat Boonyawongvirot said he had ordered 26 emergency medical teams to be prepared to treat patients.
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We only had hand clapper, so why did police use force?
source: The Nation October 8, 2008
Aranya Sukwan said she travelled from Songkhla on Monday night to join the protest at Parliament.
About 6am yesterday police and a group of 100 members of the Democratic Alliance against Dictatorship came to the crowd.
Then there was an explosion and police started to shoot at the protesters. She confirmed the police claim that no tear gas was fired.
"This means the police want to kill people," she said.
"They looked at us like dogs and I wonder why we have to kill each other as we're all Thai. We came here because we love our dear country.
"We have no weapons. We only have hand-clappers," she said.
"I want Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat to quit to save our country. This county doesn't belong to one family, it belongs to everyone."
Reunchit Jiemsuphankul, 58, said she saw police throw a little girl down on the street and use a truncheon to club a woman.
"Don't believe that police used tear gas to disperse us. They use night-sticks to hit a woman. How could they do this?"
Pongpol Taveesuk, 46, said he saw police hurl tear gas at the crowd and his right leg and neck were hurt. He saw suspicious objects that looked like ping-pong balls also being heaved at the crowd.
Ubonwan Boonyoprapas, 47, said she saw hundreds of tear-gas canisters thrown into the crowd and her right leg was injured.
"Why do they use tear gas to disperse us? We didn't have any weapons to fight them. We have only hand-clappers."
Varapon Siraveth, 54, said she heard a sound like a bomb going off then there was tear gas. She ran away with her friend after she heard the blast behind her. She was frightened after she saw a man whose leg was mangled and bloody. "It's clear that police used a bomb to break up protesters."
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BLACK OCTOBER
Violence without responsiblity, on either side
source: The Nation October 8, 2008
The man on television early yesterday looked stunned and in pain as he slowly came to terms with the fact that one of his legs was a bloody pulp, torn apart by an explosion.
Thanya Koonkaew was the man, a member of the anti-government People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD), which had blocked and surrounded the Parliament buildng - only to be forced out by volleys of tear gas, one after the other.
Enough space was eventually cleared for the new People Power Party administration to enter Parliament and deliver its policy statement.
At press time, it was still not clear how Thanya's leg was lost, but it definitely occurred while the heavy-handed dispersal of demonstrators took place.
No attempt was made to warn protesters to move away before tear-gas pellets were fired. No high-profile negotiator or politicians were present. It was simply violence.
The government may claim talking was pointless and bound to fail because PAD protesters are "brainwashed" by their leaders around the clock. But if it had succeeded, it could have saved Thanya's leg, as well as the injuries that many suffered.
The new prime minister, Somchai Wongsawat, expressed no regret about what happened to Thanya and dozens of others injured, including police. Was the prime minister responsible for the loss of Thanya's leg. Or was it Thanya's fault?
The premier read out his government's policies in haste, as if wanting to set some kind of new record.
Among them was a policy of "reconciliation" and how his regime was determined to host the Asean summit in Bangkok - to show the Thai government tried "to stop conflicts in a peaceful manner".
Somchai may speak softly and talk about peace, national unity and reconciliation, but the actions of his administration yesterday did not match the words.
The words were read at 11am and broadcast live on television as if nothing had happened. They came as more clashes between police and PAD demonstrators erupted and dozens of other people were injured.
His government now looks prepared to defend its power at all costs.
On the other side and on another channel, minutes after Somchai uttered those words, PAD leader Phiphob Thongchai was caught candid on camera a few seconds before he was set to "talk" to the public.
Phiphob was smiling to reporters in an apparently good mood before realising he had to talk to the camera. His face suddenly turned serious.
It makes you seriously wonder if PAD leaders like Phiphob or Sondhi Limthongkul really care about members like Thanya and the risks these ordinary demonstrators face.
They may go on and on denouncing the government as tyrannical and condemn its actions as barbaric and unjust, but are any of them really sorry or feel partly responsible for what happened to Thanya?
Quick to capitalise, these PAD leaders kept on agitating the crowd further and handed the government an ultimatum: dissolve Parliament by 6pm.
More violence could lead to another exploitative coup, but perhaps the PAD leaders will emerge victorious, at whatever cost to ordinary members.
By noon, a police officer was seriously injured when he was stabbed through the chest by a PAD protester wielding a flagpole.
Later in the afternoon a car exploded near Parliament. One person died in the fire, the cause of which is still being studied.
In regard to Thanya, an anchorman on Channel 3, which showed footage of Thanya and his missing leg, apologised for airing the "disturbing" footage, explaining it was aired during live coverage.
Perhaps Thai society needs a sanitised version of political conflicts, free of blood and missing limbs, as violence goes on senselessly - free of any sense of responsibility.
Tear gas fired at protestors, Queen donates for medical help
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sandman67
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I was watching the news reports live that morning and the police were using gas rounds dispensed from guns, not the grenade rounds you manually throw. At short range those guns can cause serious injuries, as the cannister is traveling damn fast. Fire one direct into a crowd at short range and people get badly hurt.
It also seemed they had intended from the outset to go in hard and heavy.
There also seemed to be either plainclothes officers or non police behind the main riot police lines...who they were was a mystery. I can say that other film crews in front of the one filming the news I was watching looked bloody scared as hell, even though they were behind this lot, and kept watching them..... so who were they?
What it did look like was a typical BKK police free for all dust up....they may wear the gear but it seems thy get sod all real training in riot control.
I cant believe the police here think they can just deny doing stuff, even when there are news crews everywhere. The lack of a serious critical media here just makes that worse.
It also seemed they had intended from the outset to go in hard and heavy.
There also seemed to be either plainclothes officers or non police behind the main riot police lines...who they were was a mystery. I can say that other film crews in front of the one filming the news I was watching looked bloody scared as hell, even though they were behind this lot, and kept watching them..... so who were they?
What it did look like was a typical BKK police free for all dust up....they may wear the gear but it seems thy get sod all real training in riot control.
I cant believe the police here think they can just deny doing stuff, even when there are news crews everywhere. The lack of a serious critical media here just makes that worse.
"Science flew men to the moon. Religion flew men into buildings."
"To sin by silence makes cowards of men."
"To sin by silence makes cowards of men."
Both English language papers here (the Nation and Post) are running articles critical of the police action. Naturally the government owned Thai ones won't neither will the rest for fear of getting censored or shutdown again as this government did previously, the only one that does report is Manager.sandman67 wrote: I cant believe the police here think they can just deny doing stuff, even when there are news crews everywhere. The lack of a serious critical media here just makes that worse.
Reporters from our office went up there last night, and yes it was carnage.
Who is the happier man, he who has braved the storm of life and lived or he who has stayed securely on shore and merely existed? - Hunter S Thompson
It certainly looks like someone from one side or another was trying to create an over reaction from the authorities.
From reading many reports it seems that some quantities of homemade explosives were being thrown into the crowd at the same time as the tear gas was fired and in a seperate incident a car bomb exploded in a vehicle belonging to a PAD member.
As usual with Asian politics it’s dificult to easily identify the culprits, it could be PAD trying to provoke a coup, disgruntled police taking out their anger or a third party trying to provoke a coup, or a forth trying to provoke a police reaction to clean out PAD.
You have the large Internal Security Command floating around somewhere and the shadowy “influential figures” of Thai politics all thrown into the equation.
You also have someone who is a past master of this sort of skulduggery, but he managed to get himself arrested earlier in the week, so it couldn’t have been anything to do with him!
From reading many reports it seems that some quantities of homemade explosives were being thrown into the crowd at the same time as the tear gas was fired and in a seperate incident a car bomb exploded in a vehicle belonging to a PAD member.
As usual with Asian politics it’s dificult to easily identify the culprits, it could be PAD trying to provoke a coup, disgruntled police taking out their anger or a third party trying to provoke a coup, or a forth trying to provoke a police reaction to clean out PAD.
You have the large Internal Security Command floating around somewhere and the shadowy “influential figures” of Thai politics all thrown into the equation.
You also have someone who is a past master of this sort of skulduggery, but he managed to get himself arrested earlier in the week, so it couldn’t have been anything to do with him!
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sandman67
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THIS is why so many were getting serious injuries....notice fired at head hight directly at the crowd....its meant to be fired as arcing fire (up in the air above the crowds heads) or down at the ground just in front of the crowd.
The real worry is that this guy hasnt got a gasmask on or on his belt....which makes me think hes actually firing baton rounds (aka rubber bullets)....which would explain why there were people loosing feet and others with massive head trauma.
But of course....the police denied actually using teargas until pictures like this started appearing in papers....now they are just denying using excessive force....thats why a handful of coppers were hurt and there are 400 protesters in hospital.....
[/img]PS Buksi....I actually meant nailing the police spokesmen when they are obviously telling lies....actually saying "Thats a lie isnt it? So our cameras were wrong were they?" Asking awkward questions and making sure they get answers instead of the usual flannel acceptance and "kap kap kap" routine I see on the news and in papers.
"Science flew men to the moon. Religion flew men into buildings."
"To sin by silence makes cowards of men."
"To sin by silence makes cowards of men."
SteveG wrote:
SJ
I was in Soi Cowboy last night and while the Thais were a bit edgy they weren't over-reacting at all http://k43.pbase.com/o4/41/354741/1/669 ... 6O3387.jpgI’m flying in at the weekend so I hope I don’t need a tank to get to Hua Hin
SJ
Interesting concept!Super Joe wrote:SteveG wrote:I was in Soi Cowboy last night and while the Thais were a bit edgy they weren't over-reacting at all http://k43.pbase.com/o4/41/354741/1/669 ... 6O3387.jpgI’m flying in at the weekend so I hope I don’t need a tank to get to Hua Hin
SJ
Looks like most that have posted on this topic seem to think the police and Govt are to blame for all this.
I see it different.
If you are going to take on the elected Govt and fight with police then you deserve whatever you get. I think the authorities have been very patient, probably to patient, with the People Against Democracy. This patience has made them think they can get away with anything hence what we have seen.
I watched it unfold on TV and at one point clearly saw a "protester" fire a revolver at police, what are the police supposed to do in that situation?
The PAD have made it very clear they dont want democracy but a system where interest groups appoint 70% of MP's, can see what this would lead to, for instance the insurance group wants a bill passed that will net them 100millB in extra profits each year so they are willing and able to fund their MP to the tune of say 10% who now has the money to bribe any MP to vote for the bill and possibly add a clause to the bill so the lawyers can get a share.
And they want to stamp out corruption, right on.
I see it different.
If you are going to take on the elected Govt and fight with police then you deserve whatever you get. I think the authorities have been very patient, probably to patient, with the People Against Democracy. This patience has made them think they can get away with anything hence what we have seen.
I watched it unfold on TV and at one point clearly saw a "protester" fire a revolver at police, what are the police supposed to do in that situation?
The PAD have made it very clear they dont want democracy but a system where interest groups appoint 70% of MP's, can see what this would lead to, for instance the insurance group wants a bill passed that will net them 100millB in extra profits each year so they are willing and able to fund their MP to the tune of say 10% who now has the money to bribe any MP to vote for the bill and possibly add a clause to the bill so the lawyers can get a share.
And they want to stamp out corruption, right on.
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Wanderlust
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robby,
While I partly agree with you in that the use of violence by protesters is unacceptable, the authorities in these situations should always behave 'better' than their opponents; all an eye for an eye brings about is a load of blind people. I don't agree with PAD's suggested electoral format, but I do agree with them that the current 'democratic' process is broken for a whole host of reasons, but chiefly because of how the boundaries have been drawn, with a disproportionate number of MPs representing certain areas thus virtually ensuring the party most popular in those areas will form the government, which creates a division in the country that is not at all welcome. Add to this the rife corruption and vote buying, and the continual under funding and poor intent (by those in power) of education, and you do not have anything close to a democracy - just because everyone has a vote does not instantly make it so; the population must be able to make an informed choice and be able to consider things beyond their home, village, town or city. This is an ambitious ideal i know but what is in existence in Thailand and many other places now is a sham of democracy to make people feel better, and that they have some control.
While I partly agree with you in that the use of violence by protesters is unacceptable, the authorities in these situations should always behave 'better' than their opponents; all an eye for an eye brings about is a load of blind people. I don't agree with PAD's suggested electoral format, but I do agree with them that the current 'democratic' process is broken for a whole host of reasons, but chiefly because of how the boundaries have been drawn, with a disproportionate number of MPs representing certain areas thus virtually ensuring the party most popular in those areas will form the government, which creates a division in the country that is not at all welcome. Add to this the rife corruption and vote buying, and the continual under funding and poor intent (by those in power) of education, and you do not have anything close to a democracy - just because everyone has a vote does not instantly make it so; the population must be able to make an informed choice and be able to consider things beyond their home, village, town or city. This is an ambitious ideal i know but what is in existence in Thailand and many other places now is a sham of democracy to make people feel better, and that they have some control.
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sandman67
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Robby
what you are supposed to do is act like police officers no matter what is thrown at you, or whether someone takes a potshot. They acted more like the Chelsea Headhunters on a day out.
what you are supposed to do is negotiate first and try to defuse the situation, then if that fails act professionally to control the situation and limit potential casualties.
what you are supposed to do is use your training and not fire gas and baton rounds at close range and at head hight directly into a crowd. One cannister of gas will clear a street....two will stop a crowd charge dead....not half a dozen.
Riot shields work as a mobile wall....lock them together and it will take a truck to break through..... act like they did, running about like laughing fools, and they are useless.
Teargas is an anti-charge measure. Baton rounds should be used only when all else fails. Firing either should be strictly limited....not a free for all which is what I watched.
You use snatch squads to take out people carrying weapons and crowd members causing most trouble.....do that a few times and rioters back off. What I saw was laughing coppers beating the hell out of people on the ground and shield walls my 12 year old lad could have broken through.
It was horrific, unprofessional and a shame to the Thai police.
So
YES the government are responsible - they issued the orders. Instead of finding a way to defuse the situation they exacerbated it and whilst it went on carried on regardless. They refused to respond to what was obviously a flashpoint and allowed it to carry on.
YES the police are responsible - they acted like untrained paramilitary thugs in an uncontrolled manner, ignoring all training and laws about the way you handle riots. They were as out of control as the crowd and made a bad situation worse....and thats why 400+ people got badly hurt and two are dead.
and the media deserve a kicking for not reporting properly, asking hard questions, or being able to tell the difference between a bomb and a bag of firecrackers.
The only bomb that went off was possibly under the jeep...and god knows who put that there. Hardly likely the PAD would blow up their own people eh? Fueltank catching fire seems more likely.
All this media hype about bombs....funny the doctors are saying theres no sign of shrapnel in these so called bomb wounds.....hmmm.....firecrackers?
what you are supposed to do is act like police officers no matter what is thrown at you, or whether someone takes a potshot. They acted more like the Chelsea Headhunters on a day out.
what you are supposed to do is negotiate first and try to defuse the situation, then if that fails act professionally to control the situation and limit potential casualties.
what you are supposed to do is use your training and not fire gas and baton rounds at close range and at head hight directly into a crowd. One cannister of gas will clear a street....two will stop a crowd charge dead....not half a dozen.
Riot shields work as a mobile wall....lock them together and it will take a truck to break through..... act like they did, running about like laughing fools, and they are useless.
Teargas is an anti-charge measure. Baton rounds should be used only when all else fails. Firing either should be strictly limited....not a free for all which is what I watched.
You use snatch squads to take out people carrying weapons and crowd members causing most trouble.....do that a few times and rioters back off. What I saw was laughing coppers beating the hell out of people on the ground and shield walls my 12 year old lad could have broken through.
It was horrific, unprofessional and a shame to the Thai police.
So
YES the government are responsible - they issued the orders. Instead of finding a way to defuse the situation they exacerbated it and whilst it went on carried on regardless. They refused to respond to what was obviously a flashpoint and allowed it to carry on.
YES the police are responsible - they acted like untrained paramilitary thugs in an uncontrolled manner, ignoring all training and laws about the way you handle riots. They were as out of control as the crowd and made a bad situation worse....and thats why 400+ people got badly hurt and two are dead.
and the media deserve a kicking for not reporting properly, asking hard questions, or being able to tell the difference between a bomb and a bag of firecrackers.
The only bomb that went off was possibly under the jeep...and god knows who put that there. Hardly likely the PAD would blow up their own people eh? Fueltank catching fire seems more likely.
All this media hype about bombs....funny the doctors are saying theres no sign of shrapnel in these so called bomb wounds.....hmmm.....firecrackers?
"Science flew men to the moon. Religion flew men into buildings."
"To sin by silence makes cowards of men."
"To sin by silence makes cowards of men."
Firstly there is absolutely nothing democratic about how TRT/PPP came into power, it is completely the wrong word to use - Thailand has yet to experience 'democracy'. How stupid does this country look if its govt is still being run by a criminal in exile?robby hh wrote: If you are going to take on the elected Govt and fight with police then you deserve whatever you get. I think the authorities have been very patient, probably to patient, with the People Against Democracy. This patience has made them think they can get away with anything hence what we have seen.
What PAD are doing is trying to stop that and stand up for what they believe in (which I don't wholly agree with BTW). This is something that "governments" and "politicians" have tried to stifle Thais from doing for the past hundred years. Remember the anti-govt protests and student movements in '76 and '92? All the government did then was shoot at them - I see no difference to today, its all they know.
I say disband PPP and PAD and have a real election with no crusty 78 year old politicians, equal MP's per province, no brown envelopes, no promises to Buriram province but not to Yala ... maybe in ten years, maybe twenty. This is the road to democracy and it must encounter these troubled times, it doesn't happen overnight, and Thailand has a long journey ahead.
Who is the happier man, he who has braved the storm of life and lived or he who has stayed securely on shore and merely existed? - Hunter S Thompson
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sandman67
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oops....double whammy...howd that happen?
Last edited by sandman67 on Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Science flew men to the moon. Religion flew men into buildings."
"To sin by silence makes cowards of men."
"To sin by silence makes cowards of men."