Pre-nups

[T.I.G.R.]

uncle tom etal -

Let's be careful here not to paint the entire female population of Thailand with the same brush.

I know of many men happily married for more than twenty years to wonderful, caring Thai women, myself included.

Not to dissuade you from properly protecting your assets, but you might be better off picking your mate more carefully.

[Super Joe]

Given that farangs can own nothing in Thailand anyway a pre-nup seems a bit pointless.

I'd disagree to be honest Mags, pre-nups in Thailand can give a farang a lot of protection. The following is based on the situation where the farang has come over with their own personal funds, as opposed to an established relationship where your Thai partner has contributed and is purchasing property jointly with you.

Farangs can own the house that sits on the land 100% in their own personal name, so under the law it would not be classed as joint matrimonial property and not be subject to a 50/50 split. Any gain in value from original purchase cost is considered matrimonial property though. Farangs would also be well advised to have usage rights registered on the land if they are putting it in their spouse's name, so that they can remain living there in event of a seperation.

Cars, motorbikes, boats and the like, plus any business you may have set-up can be protected by a pre-nup. You may have spent a substantial sum setting a business up, key money, fitting it out, stock etc, and make sure the lease is in your personal name, so you are not forced out.

Lawyer's fees seem to vary from 10,000 Baht to 20,000 Baht, and some ridiculously higher. It must be registered at time of marriage registration. It's a secure way of recording your personal property prior to marriage, you can imagine the hassle of having to demonstrate the house purchase funds were yours 20 years down the line. They prevent you from being liable for any debts that your spouse may have incurred prior to marriage that surface later, although good luck with waving your bit of paper in the face of a loan shark

Another thing worth noting is that under the law a spouse's (Thai or Farang) personal property is not limited to what you acquired prior to marriage. Anything you receive via a will or gift (loophole, loophole) during marriage is your own personal property too, unless the will or gift is in writing to be matrimonial property.

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Wills:
People really should do a will too, about 10k Baht, without one under the law the surviving spouse (even Thai married to Thai), has limited rights and IS NOT one of the six classes of statutory heirs:

Section 1629 - There are only six classes of statutory heir, & subject to the provisions of Section 1630 paragraph 2, each class is entitled to inherit in the following order:
1. Direct descendents 'children' (including children by wife from another relationship) - at the same % share as each surviving child.
2. Parents – 50%.
3. Brothers & Sisters of 'full' blood – 50%.
4. Brothers & Sisters of 'half' blood – 75%.
5. Grandparent – 75%.
6. Uncles & Aunts – 75%.

So without a will, for example if you did have anything in your Thai wife's name, like some do land and house and you did not have a biological child with her, then all the above would inherit before you if still alive.

Say you did have 1 biological child, but she has 3 from other relationships then your child, and you as guardian, are entitled to 25% of the property. If one of the wife's children from a previous relationship is a son then he may inherit and his father has a right to come out of the woodwork and claim on behalf of his son, who you may have just spent the last 10 years bringing up yourself

I don't know if the above is all exactly correct, just how I've read it, check it all out properly ofcourse.

SJ

EDITED: Correction made and some parts simplified to make it clearer.

[uncle tom]

I've no great desire to get married, but I would quite like to find a dusky maiden at my side when I wake up in the UK..

As I don't take kindly to being nagged or cajoled, I'm probably much better off with a concubine on negotiated terms, but there's that tiresome issue with UK visas..

..A lot of unlikely people seem to be gaining entry to the UK as 'students' these days, and one hears of immigration officers having lists of colleges that don't physically exist!

I wonder if one can enrol a girl at a cheap school of English (one that does exist), and get her a visa to study..?

Tom

[Khundon1975]

uncle tom
I know someone who did just that (enrolled her in an English collage on a study visa) and it worked fine for a while. Then IMO officers turned up at the front door and took his Thai girlfriend in for questioning, as she had missed 8 days of her course.

She was then ordered to leave the UK, despite having 2 months left on her visa.

It seems that Immigration now keep a close eye on attendance records at these "collages" and if they think people are taking the piss, then they are out on their ear, and it could be years before they get another UK visa.

I'm glad you said "Concubine" and not Concubinus.

Edit for spelling.

[Big Boy]

I've no great desire to get married, but I would quite like to find a dusky maiden at my side when I wake up in the UK..

As I don't take kindly to being nagged or cajoled, I'm probably much better off with a concubine on negotiated terms, but there's that tiresome issue with UK visas..

..A lot of unlikely people seem to be gaining entry to the UK as 'students' these days, and one hears of immigration officers having lists of colleges that don't physically exist!

I wonder if one can enrol a girl at a cheap school of English (one that does exist), and get her a visa to study..?

Tom

This is precisely the attitude that makes the visa process for all of the genuine applicants.

[uncle tom]

This is precisely the attitude that makes the visa process for all of the genuine applicants

??

If you read the UK visa guidance notes, it should be perfectly possible to have a Thai girlfriend visit you in the UK, provided you can demonstrate that she isn't coming to work, has a return ticket, and won't be a burden on the state.

One shouldn't have to use any ruses. The problem is that visa applications get rejected for asian women for reasons based on tactical and subjective assumptions, ones that would not be used if they came from the Americas or Africa.

I suspect the root core of this discrimination is a combination of a desire to stop Indian girls and boys being shipped over into arranged marriages; and the problem of China refusing to re-document its citizens abroad, thereby making forced repatriation impossible.

Having immigration restrictions for specific countries is diplomatically sensitive, so it is easier to be tough on a whole continent, than on specific nations.

Thailand, I suspect, is just caught in the middle..

Tom

[Big Boy]

I totally agree with the sentiment:

it should be perfectly possible to have a Thai girlfriend visit you in the UK, provided you can demonstrate that she isn't coming to work, has a return ticket, and won't be a burden on the state.

However, you go on to talk about:

I wonder if one can enrol a girl at a cheap school of English (one that does exist), and get her a visa to study..?

It's when people try to find alternative, easier methods as per statement 2 that the authorities have to start clamping down because bucking the system becomes infectious and cheats get out of hand. The only true way to obtain a visa is the correct way.

When I first met Mrs BB over 20 years ago, Pattaya was full of losers who were trying every trick in the book to cheat the British Embassy in to giving them a visa. They kept telling to forget the visa route as it was virtually impossible. To date I've made 7 successful visa applications and have never been refused. I simply make sure that I fully meet the stated criteria, and don't tell lies. If you do this, statement 1 should always apply.

Of course, making statements like:

As I don't take kindly to being nagged or cajoled, I'm probably much better off with a concubine on negotiated terms, but there's that tiresome issue with UK visas.

probably means that you have no option but to cheat.

[Governor]

Moving back to the topic Mags and SJ both make valid points, though I suspect that Mags comments might have been made following a hard day cooking sprouts and the like and just needed to left off steam.

Mags, you make very valid points but prenups can also protect a wife from a husband who has simply become bored and wants to move onto a younger model. Not all Thai women are gold diggers anymore than any women around the world, but some are and will promise their new man the world whilst looking for a short term gain and are happy to relieve a man of his life savings because of his naivety. Likewise a woman who gives up her previous life for the promise of a stable relationship also needs protecting form a man with a wondering eye who is happy to abandon his new partner and leave her on the streets.

SJ, some men do need protecting from their own stupidity, I know I did and should have listened, but the law can be fair if you persevere.

As to the people who try to circumnavigate the Immigration and Visa regulations, SJ is perfectly correct in saying that this approach makes it very difficult for everybody else, as a recently retired senior manager in the UKBA and a friend of the recent ECM (Entry Clearance Manager) I would love to share some stories but the Official Secrets Acts prevents me from doing so, but trust me there are some very good examples.

To sum up, in my view prenups are vital for the protection of all parties.

[uncle tom]

BB,

I admire your success, but I have previously tried and failed on this route, despite being scrupulously honest and attentive to detail; and having no adverse "previous". My ability to provide financial support was also demonstrably more than adequate.

I recall that one of the reasons cited for refusal, was the absence of proof that we had actually met - despite the fact that there is no requirement in law to do so, and that the supporting documents included a photo of myself and the young lady together!

After talking to others, it seems clear that there is an agenda here - no wedding certificate, no visa - even though the legal basis for that policy is extremely doubtful..

I take a little bit of offence to your suggestion that I have no option but to cheat..

Assuming you are referring to the dead hand of bureaucratic diktat, then alternate routes to compliance have always been legitimate, and always will be - the deployment of a little lateral thought with the objective of seeking a desired result within the law is only called cheating by those who didn't think of it first..

Tom

[Big Boy]

I recall that one of the reasons cited for refusal, was the absence of proof that we had actually met - despite the fact that there is no requirement in law to do so, and that the supporting documents included a photo of myself and the young lady together! So, you simply do it again, and really make sure that you meet the requirements. I accept it's a pain, but these unwritten requirements are a result of people trying to beat the system. It simply makes the immigration authorities over-cautious. Governor seems to have a fair pedigree in these matters, and although he is bound by the Official Secrets Act, he seems to confirm that the cheats are making things worse.

After talking to others, it seems clear that there is an agenda here - no wedding certificate, no visa - even though the legal basis for that policy is extremely doubtful.I and many others I know have brought their girlfriends here without a marriage certificate. In fact I would always recommend going for a fiancee visa (you don't have to prove that the girlfriend has a reason to return to Thailand). That gives you 6 months to experience being nagged or cajoled, and to see if it's your thing

I take a little bit of offence to your suggestion that I have no option but to cheat..There is always another option - what I am trying to say is trying to cheat the system does not help anybody

Assuming you are referring to the dead hand of bureaucratic diktat, then alternate routes to compliance have always been legitimate, and always will be - the deployment of a little lateral thought with the objective of seeking a desired result within the law is only called cheating by those who didn't think of it first.. I wish you well in your quest

Tom

[Governor]

It's also worth noting that the UK Embassy recently recruited a locally employed member of staff to, amongst other things, trawl through social networking sites including, I imagine, HHAD, to look for anything that might be of interest.

[margaretcarnes]

Moving back to the topic Mags and SJ both make valid points, though I suspect that Mags comments might have been made following a hard day cooking sprouts and the like and just needed to left off steam.

Mags, you make very valid points but prenups can also protect a wife from a husband who has simply become bored and wants to move onto a younger model. Not all Thai women are gold diggers anymore than any women around the world, but some are and will promise their new man the world whilst looking for a short term gain and are happy to relieve a man of his life savings because of his naivety. Likewise a woman who gives up her previous life for the promise of a stable relationship also needs protecting form a man with a wondering eye who is happy to abandon his new partner and leave her on the streets.

SJ, some men do need protecting from their own stupidity, I know I did and should have listened, but the law can be fair if you persevere.

As to the people who try to circumnavigate the Immigration and Visa regulations, SJ is perfectly correct in saying that this approach makes it very difficult for everybody else, as a recently retired senior manager in the UKBA and a friend of the recent ECM (Entry Clearance Manager) I would love to share some stories but the Official Secrets Acts prevents me from doing so, but trust me there are some very good examples.

To sum up, in my view prenups are vital for the protection of all parties.

I couldn't agree more Gov - (except for the sprouts bit!) And yes there are some very successful Thai/Farang marriages - just as there are those marriages anywhere which go wrong. Thats life.
I do have issues with pre-nups though - and with what does sound (no offence meant Uncle T) but it does sound rather like a shopping trip for that dusky head on the pillow, with the backup of an agreement in case it goes pearshaped.
There are people for whom that approach works. Just as arranged marriages in some cultures work. But in many of these cases I imagine Embassy staff are well trained - and well accustomed - to sorting the wheat from the chaff. As you say Gov, being open and genuine will work. If it doesn't - try again.
SJ's explanation of Thai intestacy law is also an eye opener, in respect of the spouse not automatically inheriting. Given that is Thai law I wonder just how much difference a pre-nup - or a Will - would actually make?

[Super Joe]

SJ's explanation of Thai intestacy law is also an eye opener, in respect of the spouse not automatically inheriting. Given that is Thai law I wonder just how much difference a pre-nup - or a Will - would actually make?

Hi Mags, Thai law does specifically recognise wills and pre-nups, but if you do not legally register them then everything defaults back to basic law, ie: legal spouse not one of the first 6 classes of statutory heirs etc

Section 1603 - An estate devolves on the heirs by statutory right or by will. Heirs who are so entitled by law are called 'statutory heirs'. Heirs who are entitles by will are called 'legatees'.

Section 1465 - Where the husband and wife have not prior to marriage, concluded a special agreement concerning their properties, the relations between them as regards to their properties shall be governed by the provisions of this Chapter. Any clause in the ante-nuptial agreement contrary to public order or good morals, or provided that the relations between them as regards such properties are to be governed by foreign law shall be void.

I agree is seems a bit cold and calculated, but men or women can lose their whole lives savings practically overnight if they do not protect themselves. No matter how unwise, we all know there is a high % of males of a certain age marrying younger ladies over here that they met in the entertainment industry
They may also be jepordising their children's future inheritence. Having said all this, I never did a pre-nup and took some silly risks, then as the relationship progressed I started to put things in wife's name so she would be secure if we seperated. What I personally consider would be wrong is if the spouse continued to 'hold all the cards' (so to speak), then after seperation many years down the road uses that agreement to not provide fairly for the other spouse. Bitterness and an acrimonious split would no doubt play a big role in that.

SJ

[margaretcarnes]

You're right SJ that children can lose out on their inheritance if the father (or mother) is taken to the cleaners in an acrimonious separation. In the UK - and the States now I think - the courts seem to be ruling on more equal division of assets in disputed matrimonial cases. And in fact in the UK there is more emphasis on arbitration and agreement (as of course Heather Mills McCartney discovered.) But overall ex wives walking away with the bulk of the assets seem less common.
We have also - thankfully - seen one or two cases of expat men getting decisions in their favour through the Thai courts. One in particular being a child custody case. But I understand from Uncle T's post that the intent is to live in his home country with a Thai bride?
Either way I still think one of the easiest ways to protect assets - such as property - is to simply sign it over to, for example, any children who would inherit anyway had the parent not married.
It's not just that pre-nups seem cold and calculating, although they do. It's whether a Thai bride (or more correctly her family) would pay any regard to it anyway. Always at the back of my mind is the tragic fate of Toby, and possibly others. Rare maybe - but when these things do happen it's notoriously difficult for bereaved families back home to seek justice.