Pattaya Water Park death

[Khundon1975]

Wanderlust

With respect WL this pool was designed for kids to play in.

A lock was meant to be on this grill and wasn't fitted.

Kids will be kids and most lack common sense, hence the need for a lock.

I agree that we cannot wrap children in cotton wool, but we should at least take simple precautions for their safety.

A tragic loss to his family.

[Spitfire]

Unfortunately, this is a classic case of "curiosity killed the cat." However, this avenue of result through the actions carried out by the teenagers should have been cut off by safety intuition/regulations on behalf of the designers/operators of the establishment.

It should have been made "idiot proof" or "tamper proof" and thought of as a possible "problem", to assume that no-one will lift-up an unsecured grill is to give way too much credit to the laxity of people's sensibilities that are on the "high" of a holiday in an exotic location. The apethy and contempt of the life guards didn't help and damned the whole situation.

I agree with the fact that people should be responsible for their actions and take responsibility, along with diagnosing whether their situation is going to be detrimental to themselves or others, but that, of course, requires abstract thought which is always thin on the ground. People cannot often be saved from themselves.

I could go on and on but won't out of respect to the thread subject matter.

It's a regretable accident that could have been avoided. The attitude of the "life guards" says it all, not just about this situation but could be applied to many other ones here too.

[STEVE G]

I don't really blame the water park for not securing the grill as to me it seems unreasonable to expect anyone to even try to open such a thing at the bottom of a swimming pool.
However in a facility such as that I would expect there to be life-guards watching at all times, so they can blow a whistle when you start doing something silly in the same manner as they did when we were kids at the local sports centre trying to submerge our mate or pushing non-swimmers into the deep end and all that kind of stuff that kids do.

[caller]

From what I have read the pool was only a metre deep! I think you're wrong WL, as, IMHO, are your analogies. Of course, it was dumb to lift the grill, but that should not have been possible. The lifeguard has admitted that the grill should have been locked.

For me, SF has summed it up very well and I agree with his post.

[Wanderlust]

I think most of you commenting are coming at this from the 'nanny state' point of view; Steve G makes a good point but that is only based on Western standards, as are all of the comments being made. Why do you expect Western standards in a country like Thailand? It doesn't apply in most of the posts on here so why should it now? I feel a very real sense of double standards coming into play here from the HHAD posters.

[caller]

I think most of you commenting are coming at this from the 'nanny state' point of view; Steve G makes a good point but that is only based on Western standards, as are all of the comments being made. Why do you expect Western standards in a country like Thailand? It doesn't apply in most of the posts on here so why should it now? I feel a very real sense of double standards coming into play here from the HHAD posters.

I have to say that I question all of the above comments.

Its got nothing to do with a nanny state and I'm weary of hearing this '3rd world' Country thing about a resort like Pattaya which sells itself as anything but. As Pete has already stated, this is a popular place where incidents seem rare. So presumably they are aware of the importance of safety and in this one incident, it wasn't there. Same happens elsewhere as well, even in God forbid, the UK nanny state (who coined that phrase? They should have patented it!).

I can't understand why you can't seem to accept that any blame should be attached to the water park for this incident?

[Spitfire]

Caller does have a point when saying a place such as the one in question market themselves as exactly that, a western standard holiday resort or the Asian equivalent in all those holiday mags that people read back in the UK and people believe that blurb.

When scrutinised properly, the duplicity of it all is apparent and easy to see, certainly when highlighted in an event such as this one. It exposes everything, ie the superficial veneer that covers everything here.

There is a lesson to learn in all of this about many sections of reality in LOS and reveals much about how it is here, from the potential for this kind of accident, to the business establishment and their MO, to the police, to reporters, to your average Thai employee, to cultural reaction from all involved etc etc.

Hmmmmm. A good thrashing on this subject/incident might get them to improve and consider what should be being considered, or dare I say it, 'get their act together' on something.

[STEVE G]

I think most of you commenting are coming at this from the 'nanny state' point of view; Steve G makes a good point but that is only based on Western standards, as are all of the comments being made. Why do you expect Western standards in a country like Thailand? It doesn't apply in most of the posts on here so why should it now?

I think when you have a facility catering for tourists in a resort like Pattaya it's a little different from Thailand in general.
My partners son in Issan swims in an irrigation pond and I would never expect a life-guard to be on duty, but that is another thing entirely.
Anyway, western standard or not, surely a man with a whistle is not beyond the water parks ability, I've been to Thai shopping malls where they have them to help you park!

[margaretcarnes]

Yes I do agree with you WL about the 'over protective' Nanny State, but this accident does appear to have been avoidable, if those in charge had been more diligent and locked what seems to have been a lockable grill!

'Do we put walls along dangerous cliff edges'? Actually yes - in some places. And several years ago in Newquay a teenager jumped over one!

[Wanderlust]

The point I am trying (and obviously failing!) to make is that in the UK and elsewhere, these type of safety measures are written into law by governments, with penalties for failing to abide by the law when such accidents happen, and even when they don't if an inspection takes place and something is found to be wrong. I very much doubt there are similar stringent health and safety laws in Thailand which would even extend to requiring a life guard be on duty, let alone a lockable grill being left unlocked. The point is that in many respects the UK and other western countries do try to wrap everyone in cotton wool and effectively support the idea that someone else is to blame when something happens, and it is this whole lack of personal responsibility for actions that I dislike, and I feel the comments here by many also reflect this concept - it has become ingrained in a lot of people. If I trip on a paving stone and injure myself I call myself a silly sod for not watching where I was going and deal with the injury - I don't look to blame or claim money from the local authority for not looking after the pavement. Almost all accidents are avoidable, and most of the time they could be avoided if the victim themselves had acted differently (unless you believe in fate). Anything can be dangerous in the wrong circumstances, so it is feasible that if the grill had been locked he might have got his fingers stuck trying to open it and drowned that way - the point is he shouldn't have been even attempting to open it or go inside.

[Spitfire]

I do see where you are coming from WL and I agree about the pavement example etc, along with the point about the lack of personal responsibility that prevails in the west........but then again, should we just let all the baffoons die just because they are too stupid and bring it on themselves, even if we could decrease the chances of such occurances? Hmmmmm......Controversial.

Sure, you can't make something full-proof but there are a few things that can be done that prevent the 'laying of a trap' or an 'invitation for disaster'. A degree of responsibility should be attempted, even here in La La land.

I am aware that there are few health and safety rules/laws here as if they (Thai authorities) were to instigate any then almost 60% of hotels/restaurants/services would close and half the country would be out of work.

This however does not absolve them of some resonsibility to attempt to do their best to offer a safe service. It's stuff like "We can't have a safety review because it's already perfect" and that would be a large loss of face to the Thai in charge of the set-up or whatever, hence nothing happens or gets improved from the initial set-up from opening.

They could have done better regarding this swimming pool incident, I reckon. I'm no safety expert but it (this incident) appears a bit limp on the side of the park business operators.

I do, however, see the point you are getting at, it just seems a bit.........well........cold blooded when it comes to places like this that have minors in them that are not of an age of responsibility for many things. If it was a 25 year old then OK, stupid idiot, cannot save you from yourself, amazed you made it to 25.

[STEVE G]

If you go beyond the human side of this tragedy and all discussion of responsibility, the lack of it and Thai safety requirements, there is another point that perhaps this will make the operators see the correlation between the cost of providing adequate safety and supervision, and the losses caused by bad publicity when something like this happens.
I can understand the argument about not expecting Western standards in the developing world, but if you're providing something as expensive as a large water park with slides and whirlpools etc., how much more is it going to increase your costs by securing a grill or providing a supervisor with a whistle to help insure your investment?

[lindosfan1]

WL has got it right. The water was 1 metre deep (Caller look at the video)
What is mystifying is that it took 3 people to lift the grill out of the pool.
When the lifeguard was informed he did not believe them because the grill was in place.
This means that on his own he lifted the grill got sucked in and replaced the grill, or the grill got sucked back into place. His brother said he should have told him not to.
All of this is on the BBC link.
How did he do it on his own????
A tragic accident yes, but some doubt that he was on his own when lifting the grill.

[caller]

Actually Lindos, I think you will find that I mentioned the pool was only a metre deep in an earlier post of today (well to me in any case, its still the 15th here, although I actually made my other post on the 14th ) - the photos from the beeb report and elsewhere are self-evident.

I think his brother helped him, could be wrong? But elsewhere, I saw one person able to lift it.

And just to start another war(!), but for another thread, neither do I believe that the UK is half the nanny state some claim it is!

[charlesh]

Having investigated a number of safety related incidents over the years I would say Gross Negligence. The water park owners would get it in the neck legally if in Oz.

As for the kid boyful exuberance and a high level of risk taking bordering on willful negligence.

WL your pavement analogy holds. How about the transport of school children in the back of utes and on motor scooters as a high risk activity in which the participant has effectively no say? Would be interesting to see the stats on that form of population control.

There are also those that voluntarily accept the risk and say control a motor scooter. A real mine field and yes a lack of OH&S rules set against a different paradigm/culture and invisible enforcement.