New law, negative effect?

[HansMartin]

I just want to say thanks to the sponsors of HHAD and all the moderators and all who have posted on this property subject and on other similar threads.

My wife and I were last out in Oct. 2005, and we started looking at retirement property. I wasn't really impressed with a lot I saw. The quality was poor, the infrastructure marginal, and things were pricey. There were some nice properties, and we were planning to look again more seriously when we come out next.

Anyhow I've been follwing this board for the last 6 months and have found a lot of people share my opinion of the unplanned growth, and marginal properties.

I never could figure out this company ownership thing. Why would I want to use MY money to buy property controlled by a group of 51% strangers who I don't know that operate under a legal system that I have no clue about. Trust me. Well my brother-in-law has been screwed plenty of times in contractural situations, and he is Thai!!

So the enforcement of exisiting laws is the final nail in my Thai prperty buying coffin. Rent, don't buy--the new mantra.

Beers on me when I come over in September for those who provided all of us with excellent advice.

[buksida]

If i were a Thai, living in Pattaya, Phuket, Samui or to a lesser extent Hua Hin and had to watch as my hometown was overun by hordes of long stay foriegners of such poor quality, who exhibit so much disrespect for local beliefs and mores, whose only purpose in life seems to be the intake of alcohol, who seem to take pride in their scruffy, dirty, out of condition appearance,who revel in their acts of naivety and poor taste and I wont even mention the choice of partners so many of these people choose to parade around the streets with ,then I too would welcome a xenophobic government that did its best to slow down the influx or rid Thailand of foriegners who bring nothing to this country but their bad behaviour.

I actually agree with a lot of what you have said and wish the government could weed out the good from the bad and not tarnish everyone with the same foul brush as you have just done so well.

[Jaime]

At the end of the day it relects very badly on The Thai Nation.

Does anyone think The Thai Nation cares about what the rest of the world thinks of it? The Thai Nation is blissfully/arrogantly oblivious of its place and reputation in the world. If The Thai Nation had a problem with its reputation then the bar girl scene would not be visible in the way that it is - remember, the 'P Word' is supposedly illegal in Thailand too! As long as the top two percent have their power and the proles have their sanook The Thai Nation couldn't give a toss what the outside world thinks!



Never forget that Thailand is a 'Third World' or 'developing,' to use the more contemporary political term, country masquerading as a developed 'hub.' As we have seen recently, in the Third World political life is inherently unstable - that is what makes it exciting, frustrating and, at times, dangerous for outsiders, who are always the first to suffer from populist policies in such places. Many Third World countries employ protectionist and disciminatory ('affirmative' if you happen to be politically correct) policies on nationalistic or ethnic lines - just look at the Bhumiputra policy in Malaysia.

Why should Thailand be any different?

Chok dee fellow outsiders!

[Farang]

'
If a foreigner has purchased a house or land in the name of a shareholding company,
he has not done anything illegal. Nor is it illegal to have other shareholders to not attend the
shareholders’ meetings, not be employed by the company or not to receive a salary or other
remuneration from the company. Just business as usual.

Nothing wrong here.

On the other hand Thais residing legally in other countries can legally own their own houses,
their businesses and whatever else they wish. Foreigners here, of course, do not receive reciprocal rights.
This is a matter that actually should be addressed by the Foreign Ministries the USA, EU,
non-EU countries in Europe, Australia and New Zealand.

Now would be the time for each and every one of us - first time ever - stop being a victim and fight back.
Fight for your rights, you DO have rights!

How?

Each and every one of us should now get all our friends, colleagues, family and all other parties
to approach our own MPs’, Senators, Foreign Ministries and EU representatives to take up this matter.
We must write to them all, sending out to all of our relevant authorities a constant barrage of letters and emails
asking about this Thai government action. There are solid reasons for our authorities to ask the
Thai authorities to explain themselves: this action targets foreigners only and in consequence is a racial thing.
Another matter is the injustice of it: Thais are welcome to own anything in their host countries but
citizens of those countries can not even legally own their own homes.

Approach your politicos from these angles: racism and injustice. Because that’s what it is.
Racism and injustice. Raise a big stink about it. Act!

Fight now or forever deservedly remain a victim.

And to all those nice people now deliriously happily wallowing in the froth of â€

[Kraka's Dad]

But the Thais are only enforcing an existing law. This law has been on their statute books for some time now and it is likely that it was when most people acquired their property. This being so they acquired it hopfully if they had correct advice knowing just what the law was. The fact that the Thais have now chosen to enforce it is unfortunate for those concerned but they took the risk that things would stay as they were and the law would not be enforced. It is no different to what is going on in Spain now where properties are being bulldozed because the correct permissions had not been obtained. The Spanish government is now enforcing their laws.
We come to LOS because we love the place and hopefully respect the Thais, part of that respect should be for ALL the laws not just the ones we like and are to our advantage.

[tuktukmike]

Farang

If a foreigner has purchased a house or land in the name of a shareholding company,
he has not done anything illegal. Nor is it illegal to have other shareholders to not attend the
shareholders’ meetings, not be employed by the company or not to receive a salary or other
remuneration from the company. Just business as usual.

Nothing wrong here.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This question came up at the meeting and the reply differs from your comment,

You can not sign off the voting rights of the thai directors and they must play an active part within the company, this is what we were told today.

Please remember that this affects us all who have registered companies out here and not just homeowners.

There are some very bright buisness people out here and one would hope that they can organise a lobby group to try and resolve this situation.

This affects everyone and arguing amongst ourselves helps no-one.

Mike.

[hogus]

Well, it was a really an interesting meeting on Majestic Beach Hotel today!
I posted the following already to the other similar thread in this forum.

First of all, nobody needs to be scare to come into trouble, if he just bought land & house in his Thai-gf's or Thai-wife's name.
He isn't an owner of anything and haven't absolutely no rights on the property of his Thai spouse or gf.

Second, it's allowed for foreigners to own land & house for residential purpose and not more than 1 rai in area, if he brings not less than 40 million Baht into Thailand and invest this money as prescribed in Ministerial Regulations.

Third, those who bought land & houses as a juristic person (Limited Company, Public Company Ltd. Limited partnerships etc.) could come into trouble, because land trading is not permitted for foreigners, or foreigners that operate as juristic persons!

More details can be found under the following official government-link:
http://www.dol.go.th/eng_version/menu.php

For further information you also can contact the Land Legal Official:
Khun Suwat Kerdphon
Tel. 01-323 2311, 02- 225 5758, 02-225 5734
e-mail: suwat59@hotmail.com

For juristic persons details can be requested under:

Bureau of Business Registration
44/100 Nonthaburi 1 Rd.
Nonthaburi 1100
Tel. 02-547-4423-4
Fax.02-547-4441

If there are any questions about taxes etc. you should click through the website:
http://www.rd.go.th/publish/5998.0.html

Hope these informations are helpful for everybody who's interested about the real laws and investment-possibilities in Thailand.

At last one word to "Farang"!
I'm sure that nobody feels envyness (???) or malicious pleasure (Schadenfreude) for those, which can come into trouble, because they ignored warnings and involved their self into a risky adventure.
Just hope, that the financial damage won’t be too worst for the affected persons!

[Jaime]

Each and every one of us should now get all our friends, colleagues, family and all other parties
to approach our own MPs’, Senators, Foreign Ministries and EU representatives to take up this matter.

For quick coverage and exposure, the media is a better bet - email the BBC en-masse.

However, I fear the misfortunes of ex-pats and investors in Asia is an issue that is neither close enough to home or mainstream enough to matter to the average W.A.S.P. in Middle England, Euroland or Middle America.

[karenjuice]

Have just received this news from my lawyer. We were due to sign the contract on our off-plan property this week and pay the first 20%.

´According to the Ministry of the Interior and the Department of Land have set up the rules and regulations, which have been into force on the 29th May 2006 since then, pertaining to the acquisition of land for the company with foreign shareholder (s) for the authorities to comply with.

The Department of Land will not allow us to have a purchase of property by a company in case that the company has foreign shareholders or foreign directors. Therefore, we strongly recommend, in order to solve the problem, that we will not put your name as a shareholder or a director as long as your company setup until the company take a receipt of the transfer of the property.

We are seeking your consent that your company will be set up with all 100% of Thai shareholder and a Thai director. In this regard, please you rest your assure that all Thais will be our staff that we will make change in respect of shareholders and director to what your intention is within 7 days after the day that the company takes a receipt of transfer of the property (or soonest as possible).´

They have attached a translation from the Ministry of the Interior and the Department of Land. If anyone is interested in seeing this email me and I will forward.
I for one will be pulling out of the purchase, I don´t need another warning sign. I know they are lawyers but I don´t know them personally and who knows what will happen next?

[STEVE G]

Frarang wrote;
Each and every one of us should now get all our friends, colleagues, family and all other parties to approach our own MPs’, Senators, Foreign Ministries and EU representatives to take up this matter.

All commiserations to those who may be affected by this unfortunate turn of affairs, however I wouldn’t expect too much help from the authorities in the west.
For instance if you are a UK citizen, the interests of the UK abroad are the concerns of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office; the problem is that Thai company’s buying Thai property under Thai law is not a UK interest. The fact that a UK citizen is a minority share holder will be of no interest to them whatsoever. The FCO is only interested in investment by UK companies abroad that will bring money back in or overseas investment into the UK. The only time I have ever managed to get anything from them was when I was contracted to a multinational company that had “Britishâ€

[Farang]

'
I still do not believe this all is aimed at the single house-owner but against the foreign developers on rampage in Thailand. However, this is a matter of people’s life-savings and consequently such an important matter that I do not think we should just curl up and give up. If the EU etc. authorities do not at this stage wake up, this eventually will lead into the authorities robbing each single foreign home-owner because they got away with it. because no one fought.

I hope no one is saying those owning their homes and now in the risk of losing their life-savings should not fight?

The angle of the attack here is not a matter of foreign minority shareholders nor any other such complicated matter. It is simply people having followed the jurisprudence of the country with the approval of the authorities - both Land Office and the Taxation Authorities. It’s a matter about law-abiding Mom and Pop buying their home with full approval of the authorities and now those same authorities are robbing the Mom and Pop by racial motives. These individuals now run the risk of losing their all even if they did all things correctly fully following the Law.

The Authorities of Thailand approved this way of home-owning. Now they disapprove of their approval? Did they lie in the first place?

These individuals now are targeted by the Thai government simply because they are foreigners, not because they have broken the law. So the angle of the attack should be the racial discrimination perpetrated by the Thai government all the while Thais abroad enjoy the same rights as the citizens of their host country.

This is all is simply a matter of racial discrimination and deliberate lack of reciprocal rights Thais are enjoying in our respective countries. This should interest at least some of the media and some of the politicos.

When a Thai moves into most of the EU countries he/she gets several types of governmental support; language courses, financial help, job-education, perdiem, free council housing and such. And, of course, full protection of the Law.

Man the barricades!

[hogus]

'
The Authorities of Thailand approved this way of home-owning. Now they disapprove of their approval? Did they lie in the first place?

When and where the Authorities of Thailand approved your written way of land owning, please?
If you didn't buy your land & house before February 27th, 1970, you never was permitted to do so as foreigner.

"According to Section 86 of the Land Code, an alien may acquire land in Thailand only by virtue of the provision of a treaty providing him with the right to own immovable property. Obtaining such acquisition is subject to the provision of the Land Code and the Ministerial Regulations issued under the Code, and the permission must be obtained from the Ministry of Interior. Before the termination of the treaty which was made on February 27th, 1970, there were 16 countries bided to the treaty ; USA, England, Switzerland, Germany, Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, France, India, Belgium, Sweden, Italy, Japan, Burma, Portuguese, and Pakistan. Since then, Thailand has no longer made any treaty with any country to allow an alien to acquire land in Thailand by virtue of a treaty."
(http://www.dol.go.th/guide/land_080745_eng.htm)

Just some loopholes in the law allowed them to own land & houses through "shell companies", although the Thai-national nominees have invested nothing in the purchase, and didn't play any active proven rule.
It was just the hope of so-called "advisors", that Thai Authorities won't enforce their own law.
Now they start to do so! That's all!

It doesn't matter, that western countries are more liberal in view of foreigner-rights.
Thailand is a sovereign country, and in all my years here, I never ever saw any request to foreigners by authorities to own land in Thailand.
These ideas just came from private people, agents, involved lawyers etc. , which saw a chance to make fast money.

How often I have heard the following sentence, "..well, Sir, you can't buy land & house official, but no worries, we know a way how you can do...no problem!..."

In my opinion is the only (honest???) mistake Thai-Authorities had done in all the years ago, that they closed their eyes or weren't very interested in those cunning private activities.

[Burger]

(Posted this on the other relevant thread too)
There is a lot of panick here but the fact of the matter is the government have not specifically directed their local land offices to stop letting small company set-ups from buying a small plot with an 'office' on it.
If we all read the Ministry of Interiors statement it is clearly aimed at foreign developers, and there is good reason for their concern about this.
The land office officials are holding a meeting next Tuesday with governement officials to clear up the interpretation, ofcourse until then the land office have to take the tougher line, ala yesterday's meeting.

Extracts from the Ministry statement:
"foreigners working with Thais set up corporation to do property trading by initially buying land and house for the purpose of making it a home or office and subsequently apply to change the usage to for sale or sub-divide and sale to foreigners "
Notice terms like "later sub-dividing land" and "to do property trading"
They do not express concern about the initial "buying land and house for the purpose of making it a home or office"

Then it goes on to say that investigations shall be carried out "in the event that a company limited which has already been set up and apply to own land for the objective of doing business in real estate "
Notice "doing business in real estate", they specify above what they mean by that.

We need to wait until it has all been clarified, scaremongering until the facts are out does not help anyone.

Burger

[hogus]

We need to wait until it has all been clarified, scaremongering until the facts are out does not help anyone.

True, but the facts are out already in my eyes, the only questions are how details are looking for affected people, and how hard Thai-Authorities will enforce their own law.
I also think panic doesn't help, but it's good to follow the official activities!

[Burger]

True, but the facts are out already in my eyes, the only questions are how details are looking for affected people, and how hard Thai-Authorities will enforce their own law.

But if the facts are out there, why is the land department having a meeting with government officials next week to clarify/inteprete this statement ?

The Ministry statement could easily have read along the lines of 'It has come to our attention that foreign run companies are buying land on the pretence of a company office and as such ALL new foreign land pruchases shall be investigated.
Why does in need to specify 'later sub-dividing for sale for profit' and 'in the business of property trading' and 'those doing business in real estate' ?

All will be revealed next week.
Burger