Reasons to leave the UK 1, 2, 3.

[sargeant]

Dawn i agree there were a very small number of bent coppers (but you make it sound as if it was as normal as apple pie and it was not) I also disagree that pace is not the culprit as the police said it is now that you must get two KOs two pinfalls to score a draw
i read somewhere that there have been numerous cases where Video evidence has been stopped from being used under pace because of how it was stored or signed for even cases where fingerprints could not be used because the chain of evidence was broken somewhere and i am sorry that is ludicrous that people can have all the evidence factual and real and touchable and visible and yet the crim walks on a technicality written in the rules of pace purely to assuage the sensibilities of the far left wing

My martian answer is to scrap PACE and make a new law which states
any one and in particular police will recieve the same sentence as the person who they have given false evidence against if it is proved that they have given false evidence

that would make the bad boys think twice IMHO

Oh and dawn just because the brummigum 4/5 got out dont please even vaguely think they were as pure as driven snow they were IRA full stop

I do agree they should all recieve a trial and not be shot, right up to when they shoot or tool up against anybody including the police

on another thread i am dead set on gun controls except for police and military

[DawnHRD]

Dawn i agree there were a very small number of bent coppers (but you make it sound as if it was as normal as apple pie and it was not)

I apologise if I make it sound as if they were extremely common. That was not my intention. However, they must have been reasonably common for the act to be brought in. No corrupt/bent police/wrongful practices = no need for the act.




Oh and dawn just because the brummigum 4/5 got out dont please even vaguely think they were as pure as driven snow they were IRA full stop

They were not guilty of the crimes of which they were convicted. Neither were the Guildford Four. Whether they were or weren't IRA is a matter for conjecture & immaterial to the fact that they were wrongfully convicted, IMO.

[sargeant]

that is the whole problem with PACE it was brought in on the back of political reasons jumped on by the far left after some extremely bad but overdone publicity of a few bent coppers unfortunately to some every policeman is bent just being a policeman means he is bent
to the far left every single thing in authority is bent (they want anarchy)
Making laws to restrict the 99% of good honest policemen to stop the 1% of bad just leaves the public as mere prey for the criminal it also means good policemen do not join and take other employment and then the policing standards drop who suffers the prey species ie the people like me and you

AS for the brummies and the guildford boys all i will say is O J Simpson is innocent as well and blake

[caller]

PACE was introduced as a direct consequence of miscarriages of justice caused by Police corruption and mistreatment of evidence. It was based, I believe on the USA's minerva(?). Sorry, can't be bothered to research the correct name.

Anyway, back to the topoic, sort of. Labour tried to extend the date terrorists and the like could be held under PACE before either being released or charged, to 90 days. It was blocked by the tories, Lib-Dems and some Labour rebels. The Govt tried to introduce it because of the sheer volume of suspected evidence that is being obtained on arrest and how long it takes to analyse data - computer forensics and the like.

I think it was a mistake not to have allowed that change and the max. they can be held is 28 days, with judges having to authorise the detention for that long at various stages.

By the way, going back to the release of the two terrorists, when one was found to have a detailed map of the flight path of x airport (can't remember the one), the judge commented that there could be a "wholly innocent explanation for that".

Beam me up Scotty !!!

[Hervelon]

If I may add to all your posts...I am French born but I have lived in the UK most of my life and this is where I call home until I started spending much time (but not enough!!)in Hua-Hin...I have seen the way life has changed in Britain...as there are so many posts not sure who mentioned the various acts passed by successive governments (including PACE in 1984 and others...) as a simple UK citizen, life in London especially has changed enormously since my early days over 20yrs ago...sadly not for the better, I have issues with immigrations policies, the EU development, UK education system, discipline in School and one the highest subject on the political agenda beside the war in Iraq and the NHS is LAW AND ORDER in the UK...so it goes on...although I loved the country I do not wish for my young children to spend any more time in the UK than they should have...I know my comments may not please everyone...but I feel that UK is used and abused by people who have never contributed to system...whilst those who have are left alone to feel sorry for themselves...including but not limited to victims of crime as well as everyday law abiding citizens...
It does feel now that crime is at record level, potential terrorists, drugs dealers, paedophile seem to walk the street after minimal jail terms... it all seem a non-sense...to the risk of upsetting various ethnic groups and be politically incorrect or worse being criticised by Brussels no politicians wants to take actions...please can someone tell me where we are heading?
Look forward to read your comments

[Wanderlust]

I don't live in or visit the UK very frequently now, so I just want to pose a question about the perception of life in the UK now; is it possible that the media, and in particular the newspapers, are painting such a bleak picture that it just feels that it is really bad, rather than being actual experiences creating that impression?

I do get the feeling that there is a feeling from the media that the Labour government have had their 'go' and so they have been stirring it up to make the voters feel discontent. I don't actually think it matters one jot who is in power really, but the political merry-go-round continues as if it does make a difference - the rot set in when the Thatcher governments were in power and made the UK a selfish society, and the governments since have not shifted that idea one bit. I guess that was part of the reason I left when I did, although not all of it.

[DawnHRD]

Hervelon & Caller,

I think it's hard for any of us living here to offer an accurate summing up of what's going on in UK at the present time. We're not there, most of us haven't lived there for quite some time (13 years in my own case) & many of us, by our own admissions, don't even like to visit that often. So, how then, can even the most "know-all" of us realistically offer anything beyond what we have read, what we remember, and our own gut feelings, beliefs & (sadly) prejudices.

I tend to agree with WL that I feel some of the problem may be media sensationalism. But seeing as that's much of what we "over here" see, that must shape our views, whether we believe it all or reject some (or all) as being sensationalism.

When I left UK there were no ASBOs, no chavs, very little immigrant problem (certainly nothing like is seen today, particularly in South Coast towns)... It's hard to process all the changes & come up with a reasonable answer..

[caller]

Dawn,

I find the use of the word "chav" offensive. Not your fault, I know that. But I find the denigration of white working class that are the "chavs" as offensive as calling a black man a "nigger". I have no idea why this has become accepted?

I know that my views might be extreme - coming from a chav background, so to speak. But I find it amazing that such ridicule has become the norm. Probably because they are the most high profile deprived group in several deprived areas now. Certainly the case in a few parts of London.

ASBO's (anti-social behaviour orders) are a part consequence/cause of this. Although grannies now get locked up for being an "ASBO".

Dawn, as you will know, every area is different and I live in a reasonably affluent community, a suburb of London, where the largest minority groups are Korean/Japanese (which is okay by me, which I accept, shows my prejudice - but hey, I'm honest about that).

But as I drive to work, I see more and more muslims in traditional robes (that I find offensive), I can buy Polish food and booze everywhere, I see Polish car registrations everywhere and increasingly russian shops. I know of many somalian/east african "khat houses" (look it up, a banned Cat. A substance in the USA and other places) that are influenced by the proximity to Heathrow. And a few years ago these kids were carrying AK47's in their homeland. Some of their compratriots kill Police Officers here (surprise, surprise). Some get high on Khat, although on the whole its equivalent to eucolyptus on Koalas.

Meanwhile, France is building another "sangrette" across the channel, so much for the EU maxim that the country immigrants make it to will harbour them - not that the immigrants want to stay in France - they want to reach the UK where the real benefits are.

I'm aware of the reality as opoosed to Govt. spin, such as those arriving from Bulgaria/Rumania can't claim benefits (they can in many instances), the real nonsense being that those who have skills we seemingly need can fast track here (can also claim benefits - why if there skills are needed?). How skilled, highly trained UK student Doctors have had to compete with those qualifying abroad, leading to many home grown being without jobes, although that scheme just been scrapped - partly because of the numbers from abroad falsifying there records.

I don't want to continue, its depressing me. My line of work doesn't help. But its why I want out and have little respect for the politicians, the chattering classes (my pet hate) - too influential by half - and the crap I see all of the time.

Apart from that, life is fine!

[redzonerocker]

i have to agree with wanderlust that the rot began in the thatcher years. it did make the uk a selfish society.
as in all politics, the spin & promises never materialise & the merry go round continues.
hervelon & caller are spot on with their assessments & like you say dawn having been away so long you have probably lost touch with the reality of the events in the uk.you would be horrified at the changes that have occured in the past 10 years.
i am a proud, patriotic brit but like many thousands of others i'm looking to get out of this place.
the reasons are basically the same as hervelon/caller. far to many immigrants riding the gravy train of our social system, getting handouts left right & centre without any intentions of contributing to society at all.
no problem with working migrants, but they should not get any benefits for housing, nhs etc. i never did in all the years of working abroad.
crime is out of control because the punishments are so pathetic & the prisons are like holiday camps anyway.
there is no respect or discipline in schools & thats because of european legislation plus the ridiculous human rights laws.
it is certainly not media hype creating the unrest in the working classes. its there for all to see in the major cities & i have seen it in my city. its quite disturbing & i think it will all go terribly wrong in the near future.

[caller]

Oooer RZR,

That not quite what I said! I agree with the bit about working migrants and have long wanted to see a quota system as per Oz.

As for the Poles etc. That was because unlike most eu countries that placed restrictions on those travelling. The UK didn't. I'm not blaming those guys for coming here. Just the recklesseness in allowing them to and now we're stuck with it! But same effect, I guess.

I do not and will not accept returning those to whence they came who have acted against the UK as wrong. I suspect most people think the same, but this Govt, like others, is scared of the influence of a few powerful media people and twat columnists. I don't know why? Betjeman got it wrong talking about Slough, it should have been Notting Hill, Holland Park and other wealthy areas that those with too much influence, who don't live the reality, actually live, who should take the hit.

I think a lot of crime is out of control. But I think the problems are an inept criminal justice system, not helped by little or no investment, meaning the courts are unable to efficiently deal with those who come before them and yes, the punishment doesn't always fit the crime. This again goes back to the differences between those CC's and the rest of us. Personally, I would be happy to see another 10 prisons built and the prison population go up, to keep those that commit crimes off the street. But we are always told that doesn't work. What doesn't work is releasing people too early cos' there's no room left. Why pretend in bothering to educate them?

How many times do we hear, as we did the other day, like the guy Tobin, a serial offender who got 14 years in 94 for abducting and kidnapping 2 young schoolgirls in Hampshire, one he raped, one he was in the act of when his 6 year old son walked in (I actually remember that case) who has now raped and killed another in Glasgow. Now let me see? 14 years in 1994 = release date in 2008. WTF!!!

Ironically, I'm not sure I share the view about Thatcher. She emancipated the working classes, thats for sure. And as a working class kid, I was one of many millions that voted her in, because the old labour ways weren't working. Now we have a Labour party who is probably to the right of her and tory party to the left!!! Life is very strange.

[redzonerocker]

accepting migrant workers is ok as long as they are filling vacancies in areas required, skilled or unskilled.you are right caller, we should have a points system like oz but as usual we are introducing it after we are already overloaded.
problem is a lot of employers are just using them as cheap labour which then entitles a lot of them to social benefits such as tax credits, housing benefits etc etc. the burden on the welfare system is bad enough as it is without free handouts to some who have actually now returned home to east europe but are still drawing their benefits via bank transfers.
the queues on the french side of the channel show no sign of decreasing & as long as we carry on paying out, the more they will show up on the doorstep looking for an easy life.
the burden on the welfare, schools & health system has become far to great.
giving social security cheques to asylum seekers & migrants to buy cars etc is an insult to the uk working classes who have to struggle as much to make a decent living through hard graft.
i'd be quite happy to send them back to whence they came, in a civilised orderly fashion, i would add.

[DawnHRD]

Sorry, Caller, didn't mean any offence. When I said we didn't have "chavs", I meant the actual terminology and the culture that seems to in turn to celebrate & denigrate them, I didn't mean that we didn't have working class whites or that I personally was calling them that name. I can say hand on heart that it is not a word I have ever used to describe another person.

[Wanderlust]

Just an aside, but I have always taken the word 'chav' in it's current usage, to mean ignorant white people who believe everything they read in the tabloids, follow every fashion craze (as long as it involves Burberry and 'bling'), follow the most successful football team of the moment, and worship at the poster of the King and Queen of the chavs,Posh and Becks, every night. If anything my perception of them is that they have no class and no breeding. Interestingly though, the origin of the word is as a gypsy word for children, which presumably is why it can't be deemed offensive or racist in the same way nigger is. I guess in some ways the gypsy meaning still applies to those I have described.

[caller]

Sorry Dawn, I didn't mean to be so heavy about the word "chav"! Its just my view, ironically confirmed by WL.

In many respects he's right and in many respects that represents a proportion of white, working class. But I don't understand why it has become acceptable to mock them based on their dress, clothes or ideals - and the thing about Becks is just gutter press nonsense. Although I accept I am generalising a lot.

On the whole, they have been treated like crap over the last few years, living on sink estates with poor education and prospects. They have seen their traditional environments change with huge influxes of immigrants, with little or no control or planning. What is that to mock? Its no wonder that its in those areas the BNP are making inroads, as no-one else is looking out for them, that's for sure.

Look at the murder in East London recently. A young white guy that fits the "chav" description, a TV aerial fitter, confronts a bunch of hoodies throwing stuff at his car. He's held down and slashed across the face and stabbed in the neck. The Police didn't even bother investigating properly (which is now being investigated) and no arrests are made. Then a few weeks later, the same gang are causing a disturbance, he chases them away, they return and one of them shoots him dead in front of his wife and kid. Then the Police did something. Like it or not, the gang were kids of immigrants. An 18 year old has just been jailed for 25 years. What a way to live a life - and die.

As I said, just my view.

[Hervelon]

Dawn,

I find the use of the word "chav" offensive. Not your fault, I know that. But I find the denigration of white working class that are the "chavs" as offensive as calling a black man a "nigger". I have no idea why this has become accepted?

I know that my views might be extreme - coming from a chav background, so to speak. But I find it amazing that such ridicule has become the norm. Probably because they are the most high profile deprived group in several deprived areas now. Certainly the case in a few parts of London.

ASBO's (anti-social behaviour orders) are a part consequence/cause of this. Although grannies now get locked up for being an "ASBO".

Dawn, as you will know, every area is different and I live in a reasonably affluent community, a suburb of London, where the largest minority groups are Korean/Japanese (which is okay by me, which I accept, shows my prejudice - but hey, I'm honest about that).

But as I drive to work, I see more and more muslims in traditional robes (that I find offensive), I can buy Polish food and booze everywhere, I see Polish car registrations everywhere and increasingly russian shops. I know of many somalian/east african "khat houses" (look it up, a banned Cat. A substance in the USA and other places) that are influenced by the proximity to Heathrow. And a few years ago these kids were carrying AK47's in their homeland. Some of their compratriots kill Police Officers here (surprise, surprise). Some get high on Khat, although on the whole its equivalent to eucolyptus on Koalas.

Meanwhile, France is building another "sangrette" across the channel, so much for the EU maxim that the country immigrants make it to will harbour them - not that the immigrants want to stay in France - they want to reach the UK where the real benefits are.

I'm aware of the reality as opoosed to Govt. spin, such as those arriving from Bulgaria/Rumania can't claim benefits (they can in many instances), the real nonsense being that those who have skills we seemingly need can fast track here (can also claim benefits - why if there skills are needed?). How skilled, highly trained UK student Doctors have had to compete with those qualifying abroad, leading to many home grown being without jobes, although that scheme just been scrapped - partly because of the numbers from abroad falsifying there records.

I don't want to continue, its depressing me. My line of work doesn't help. But its why I want out and have little respect for the politicians, the chattering classes (my pet hate) - too influential by half - and the crap I see all of the time.

Apart from that, life is fine!

I share similiar views, although whilst in the UK i live in fulham, supposely a nice part to live in most area...i found that whilst taking one of my young son to school, brand new council houses where occupied almost entirely by east african (sommalian, ethiopian...) whilst the low income british family (i am certainly not promoting National Front policies either)seemed to be put on an housing wating list for years before being eligible for accomodations...i think its wrong, we should look after our british national 1st. in many african countries britain is percieve as a haven for refugees...
There is african people here in the UK, who are able to claim benefits, get council housing and sub-letting it, travel back and forth to their homeland.
i makes a mockery of our welfare system.
Talking to some African colleagues who are legally working in the UK, they have told me that in some African countries, there is so call agencies who prepare you on how to claim benefits upon your arrival in the UK... Many of the the people i know and i have worked with have had enough, and most dont believe like a change of leader or party will resolve any problems at all...Sad!
Well as you maybe or may not be aware France yesterday elected a right wing conservative president who is well known for his tough views on immigration and crimes...I will look closely from the 16th May when Mr Sarkosy moves into office to see how he is planning to curb illegal immigration and integrate the large cities muslim/north african ghetto to name but a few of the problems we although have in France