Show and tell time for Samak

[STEVE G]

Personally I think it will be better having Samak Sundaravej as PM instead of the junta as long as he doesn’t do too much.
Any form of Democracy will bring some stability to the country and Samaks only job is to face off the powers behind the coup.
The problems will begin if he decides that he really can run the country and comes up with any madcap plans in a similar vein to the CNS’s amateur attempts to control the economy.
Basically he just has to leave the running of Thailand to professionals and carry on with his cooking shows.

[Lev]

Lets keep this on topic please, klikster there is no need for all the aggression, this is not the thai visa forum!

LJ

[buksida]

Fact: PPP has been democratically elected despite the best efforts of Prem and the Junta. PPP has hardly had time to show whether they are good or bad.

Fact: TRT no longer exists, so how can Thailand be "better" with them?

Fact: I never said that Thailand was going to be great under the PPP.

Please stop attributing things to me that I didn't say.

Fact: "Democracy" in this country isnt as clear cut as you think it is.

Fact: TRT are directly financing PPP and have simply changed names, the 111 banned TRT politicians are all on the way back.

How about posting some articles and generating a good discussion instead of having a go at everyone here.

Steve agree with you in the premise that Samak is better than the junta ... but only by a small margin. The country is deeply divided and again the northeast majority have got their outcome. This doesn't mean that "Thailand" is now happy with its government.

[Wanderlust]

klikster,
Just for your edification -
implication |ˌimpliˈkā sh ən|
noun
1 the conclusion that can be drawn from something, although it is not explicitly stated

and
infer |inˈfər|
verb ( -ferred , -ferring ) [ trans. ]
deduce or conclude (information) from evidence and reasoning rather than from explicit statements

I did not infer because I asked you to clarify your position; as it turns out my interpretation of your views was pretty much spot on!
I now have to ask you if you are not aware of the link between PPP and TRT, which has been talked about quite openly by the new PM? All of your posts on this topic so far seem to deny any connection between the two, which either undermines the stance you are taking or suggests that you were pro-Thaksin and his party, TRT. Incidentally there is nothing wrong in holding that opinion but it would be much easier to discuss these things if you stated your view rather than simply attacking others. I am always interested to hear why people have their particular opinion, however misguided it appears to me. That is what forums are for.

[klikster]

klikster,
Just for your edification -
implication |ˌimpliˈkā sh ən|
noun
1 the conclusion that can be drawn from something, although it is not explicitly stated

and
infer |inˈfər|
verb ( -ferred , -ferring ) [ trans. ]
deduce or conclude (information) from evidence and reasoning rather than from explicit statements

I did not infer because I asked you to clarify your position; as it turns out my interpretation of your views was pretty much spot on!
I now have to ask you if you are not aware of the link between PPP and TRT, which has been talked about quite openly by the new PM? All of your posts on this topic so far seem to deny any connection between the two, which either undermines the stance you are taking or suggests that you were pro-Thaksin and his party, TRT. Incidentally there is nothing wrong in holding that opinion but it would be much easier to discuss these things if you stated your view rather than simply attacking others. I am always interested to hear why people have their particular opinion, however misguided it appears to me. That is what forums are for.

Answered by PM

[Wanderlust]

klikster,
Your method of posting is to take apart what others have said, without offering your own thoughts on the subject matter; thus we have to guess at what you really think from those few crumbs. I am not going to engage in a debate by PM as that misses the whole point of the forum; trying to petty point score is not the idea either. To answer one of the points you made in the PM, you said in an earlier post on this thread

3 - I can't have an honest opinion about PPP because they have no history.

This is totally incorrect, as the PPP is the (self admitted) reincarnation of the TRT minus Thaksin and the other banned members (although it is clear they are pulling the strings), so therefore it does have a history, and trying to deny that is at best a bad argument, and at worst stupid. As I have already said, there is nothing wrong in being a supporter of any party, but on a forum debate the idea is to back up your opinion with some reasons for it; the very definition of debate. If one's reasons are questioned and found to be ill founded, it enables one to change one's opinion, and vice versa. I am still waiting to hear your reasons for your opinion, but of course, you are quite entitled not to give them as well, but that will lead me and others to reason that you can't back up your position. It also makes your posting on this thread a complete waste of time. Either properly engage in the debate or stop posting.
Now,

[klikster]

Either properly engage in the debate or stop posting.

[sandman67]

Fact: "Democracy" in this country isnt as clear cut as you think it is.

well said that man, and an accurate summary of the political situation here.

Seems to me the country is torn two ways between the "poor" (and I use that word cautiously) and "politically naive" (used much less cautiously) farmers in the North / N East and "rich" metropolitan / Bangkok / southern areas. Sounds a bit like the situation in England during the 40s to the 80s. Right now Id saw we are looking at the 70s Labour coalition government situation...and look where that led.

At the end of the day Samak, by his own admission, is a "proxy" for Thaksin. Samak has shown his stamp....he is a corrupt thieving turncoat who runs with whatever side is on the ascendant or in power. He is as politically sophisticated as a housebrick, and has all the international appeal of the ebola virus. He is no more than the loudmouthed monkey to Mr Thaksin's organ grinder.

Just look at how he handles awkward questions in press conferences .....what an embarrassment. Like a pissed up Yeltsin he will stagger across the worlds media stage leaving a trail of chaos and bemusement. The western press are already ripping on him.

His puppetmaster, Mr T, is also a thieving, lying corrupt tossbag who cant even do a deal for a football club without getting his sticky fat fingers caught in the till, and when the band kicks off runs for the exit rather than facing the music. His life was never in danger from the coup or the judiciary.....he ran because he knows he's guilty and he ran because he has no backbone or balls. A man like Clinton faces the music, a coward like Thaksin leaves his family behind and runs and hides.

What amazes me is that the voters, poor bastards, haven't realised just how much he screwed em. When I'm up in Mrs S's village in Issan I hear about how great he was from the locals....but ask them what exactly he did for them and they start scratching their heads...the village still doesn't have a local school, good roads, reliable power and water.....but they'd still vote for him again. Why....cos Mrs S tells me the village elder/headman is a PPP party member/local official and he tells em how to vote.

This situation is a disaster for Thailand. The coalition will self destruct within a year or two and then the whole mess starts again. Thats if Mr T doesn't return and start his shenanegans which in turn precipitate more strife and another coup.

And Samak as the representative of Thailand to the international community?.....the horror, the horror.

[Jockey]

Sandman67 - enjoyed your post it even made me smile a couple of times

I agree with a lot what you say, but a couple of questions / observations...

Didn't the Military coup happen while Mr T was out the country and therefore was not in a position to "run away" Wasn't he told he would be arrested if he came back? That's not running away in my book - that's keeping out of trouble.

As for the comparison with Mr Clint - sorry, can't see it.

As for Democracy is not what it seems in Thailand, I would ask where in the world is Democracy what it seems?

As for the rest of your post - as I said - very enjoyable!

[richard]

Sandman

Good post and very true, however my wifes village, 70 km north east of Khon Kaen have benefited over the last 4 years. Water tower, new roads, schools and health help. This is what counts to them and they show their gratitude through the ballot box.

Having said that, they are now in a quandary about the future. Many do not know or want to know about the links between PPP and TRT. Many do not know or don't want to know about Bangkok rich. They basically only care about their village. As for Thailand policies they are at sea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Heres an example. I've tried to explain the visa situation to them. Answer? 'you don't need one here'. Get out of that one. It's like banging your head against a coconut palm or a buffalo's butt

I can see where they are coming from. This has been their livelyhood for generations and although they want the new changes, they still want their country farming life. I was there on one occasion and a flash 4 by 4 full of rich Bangkokians turned up and offered to buy half the village. The wife's eldest brother promptly stepped in and said' on your way'

Eventually it will change but hopefully not in my lifetime

[STEVE G]

What amazes me is that the voters, poor bastards, haven't realised just how much he screwed em. When I'm up in Mrs S's village in Issan I hear about how great he was from the locals....but ask them what exactly he did for them and they start scratching their heads...the village still doesn't have a local school, good roads, reliable power and water.....but they'd still vote for him again. Why....cos Mrs S tells me the village elder/headman is a PPP party member/local official and he tells em how to vote.

Whilst I'll readily agree that Thaksin and TRT were a pretty despicable corrupt bunch, there is a reason that the population in rural areas repeatedly votes for them.
Basically this revolves around the fact that they broke the government controlled monopolies on agricultual product prices.
Succesive Thai governments, like others in the region, deliberately kept the rural population in a state of poverty so that they could exert control over them. When you have to devote every waking hour to growing enough food to eat you don't have the time to worry about politics.
The elite in Bangkok payed a government controlled pittance for rice and other products, with the collusion of Thai/Chinese distributers, which they then could export internationally for obscene profit. The people of Issan and other rural areas understand enough about democracy to not vote for people who are going to attempt to starve them to death.
Studies suggest that he wealth of the rural population has approximately doubled during the last ten years, and that is the reason why they worship Thaksin.

[caller]

.... my wifes village, 70 km north east of Khon Kaen have benefited over the last 4 years. Water tower, new roads, schools and health help. This is what counts to them.....

Same for my wife's village 120k NE from Korat (just abut in Isaan). The road that connected them to the one that goes to the nearest town was sealed and schooling was free. Since the coup, schooling and books have had to be paid for.

More questionable, to me anyway, was the loan scheme, Ooy's village received about 1m baht!

Informative post by Steve as well.

I think the status quo is being challenged and will continue to be so.

[Big Boy]

I must agree, the changes in my wife's village now compared to when I first went there are phenomenal eg running water, proper roads etc. Thaksin must have been doing something right.

However, regarding the statement

When you have to devote every waking hour to growing enough food to eat you don't have the time to worry about politics.

The village life that you experience must be a hell of a lot different to that which I've experienced. In my wife's village, 30 to 60 minutes work per day is the limit - and that's during busy periods such as rice harvest time. During the quiet times, the work per day is negligible if any at all.

[richard]

BB

30 to 60 minutes?????

In my village it's out at 5.30am and home at 6pm

When they are cutting the cane it is backbreaking. I tried it and lasted 5 minutes. They do it for 12 hours. Rice planting is even more strenuous. Your up to your calfs in water and spend most of the time stooped over the paddy fields. Herding the cattle and buffalo is the best bet. Take them out, let them feed and sleep under a tree until dusk.

In my village whilst the men and some women are undergoing the above the women engage in picking mushrooms, making charcoal, weaving whilst preparing food and looking after the kids.

The lazy ones do not survive

[Big Boy]

richard,

I totally agree with the

In my village it's out at 5.30am and home at 6pm

In fact a couple normally stay out overnight as night watchmen as well; but have you been out with them for the day?

I've been out at harvest time a few times. They work really hard for 30 to 60 minutes - then it becomes too hot for them to do any more. The rest of the day is spent in the field talking, eating and sleeping - basically doing what Thais do best.

I'm not saying your experiences are inaccurate, I am merely passing on my personal experiences.