Where does corruption start?

[Spitfire]

SJ has a point there.

[Vital Spark]

VS,
That is very commendable, but I want to ask if you have ever been on the other side of the corruption coin? Have you ever been stopped by the police here while driving and been told that you have done something wrong (e.g. not wearing crash helmet, speeding)? This is even if you haven't done anything wrong. Do you or have you taken the moral high ground and insisted that you have done nothing wrong and that you will go to the police station for several hours, etc, or do you/have you paid the 200 baht 'fine' so you can go on your way? I'm not judging you, just asking. It is very hard to avoid corruption here as it is almost ingrained into life in Thailand.

You're quite right Wanderlust, we've been stopped a couple of times (which in nearly 11 years isn't so bad). Maybe it's because we lead a pretty nomadic lifestyle.

I, personally, won't be corrupt, but obviously living in the land of corruption I have had to pay a fine (through gritting teeth) for being in the 'wrong' lane in Bangkok. I would never ride a motocycle without a helmet, or sit in a car without a seatbelt. Partly because it's the law, but more importantly because I would like to live a bit longer.

As much as I hate corruption, I have to go with the flow. I will not, however, ever be a corrupter, although I may be a corruptee (if such a word exists) unwillingly.

VS

[buksida]

We the public help to fund and facilitate corruption

Tis true but it doesn't make it right though ... doesn't say much for the general public either!

Interesting question as to where it starts though, I guess in Asia its a matter of survival as its so prevalent here ... corrupt or be corrupted!

[Super Joe]

Agree Buksi, and as VS says you go with the flow, it's part of the way of life here and as usual the poorest suffer the most.
It's about greed greed and a bit more greed.

It's difficult not to partake in, for some of us, when you see an advantage for your family and no-one appears to be getting hurt by it ..... that we can see of anyway.

SJ

[Spitfire]

Just want to clarify something, I think,

Corruption - abstract noun: Illegal, immoral or dishonest behaviour, especially by persons in a position of power.

Source - The Cambridge Advanced Learners Dictionary

Bribery, I suppose, is the act of offering and corruption is the act of acceptance by said person in power.

So, in the OP, the example of the kindergarden teacher is corruption as she has power over that class and her actions may not be against Thai law, but it is definately immoral or dishonest with the end result of benefit.

So, with the greatest respect Guess and Buksi,

I don't think the thread is mis-titled at all.

[Guess]

.................
Corruption - abstract noun: Illegal, immoral or dishonest behaviour, especially by persons in a position of power.

Source - The Cambridge Advanced Learners Dictionary

A fairly brief definition. Here is a more comprehensive definition based on many sources but published in dictionary.com.

the act of corrupting or state of being corrupt.
2. moral perversion; depravity.
3. perversion of integrity.
4. corrupt or dishonest proceedings.
5. bribery.
6. debasement or alteration, as of language or a text.
7. a debased form of a word.
8. putrefactive decay; rottenness.
9. any corrupting influence or agency.

In the context of this thread I think the Cambridge explanation fits OK and they should know all about corruption if you look at some of their past students. (Burgess, Philbey, McLean etc.)

Bribery, I suppose, is the act of offering and corruption is the act of acceptance by said person in power.

No that's not correct. The offer of bribery and the following acceptance form an act of corruption. One of many kinds of corruption but as Super Joe said, it is the most common especially here in Thailand.

So, with the greatest respect Guess and Buksi,

I don't think the thread is mis-titled at all.

Read again. I did not say it was mis-titled, I only said that, so far we had only mentioned bribery (definition 5) when other forms of corruption come in to play that may be significant. E.g.

The local mayor does not want low flying aircraft landing over his granny's house so he does not approve the extension of the runway.

The prime contractor who will get the building contract if approved is a candidate for the Democrats so deny approval.

Overturn the decision to close naked karaoke bars because that's where I go every night. (The official that is. Not me. Honest.)

And the moral of this story is:

Don' t throw those bleeding dictionaries at me.

PS. Is that first school or middle school advanced learners?

[MrPlum]

I would rather pay 200 THB to a bent cop than 20x that to a bent state. Twice I got fined 120 Euros for not wearing a seat belt in Portugal. Once when I was sat in the back of a car. Speed traps in the UK are automatic money printing devices for the Police. Also, if I go one minute over my parking ticket, my car is clamped.

The State has now become Dick Turpin, except you can't shoot the bas***d.

I think we all know that 'money is the root of all evil'. We are unhappy about relatively minor incidents, yet how many are really aware of the huge scams being perpetrated.

Who hasn't yet twigged the 'health' industry is in reality the 'sickness' industry?

Is it really credible that we can't find a drop of natural food in a supermarket, only irradiated, de-natured, chemically-derived, colored, preservative-laced gloop, full of appetite-stimulants, that they put in pretty packaging and call food? They know it makes us sick but that's exactly the intention. Wouldn't you call that a corrupt system?

The whole world money system is corrupt.. see fractional reserve banking.

The American state is corrupt, see CARF http://www.cafr1.com/

There is no such thing as 'democracy', it's a lie. A lie being a corruption of truth.

Religion is totally corrupt. It's picked the pockets of the ignorant masses for centuries. At one time priests encouraged parishioners to buy their way into heaven. 'Tithing' is another scam.

The social services is corrupt... state kidnapping masquerading as family support.

The deliberate corrupting of our children at an early stage by a deceitful media. Walt Disney Corp=Satan's handmaiden
Bill Hicks said Marketing and Public relations people should kill themselves. I agree. Professional liars the lot of them.

The criminal justice system is corrupt. There to protect monied or connected criminals and in the service of same.

The Prison system is corrupt. A prisoner is sentenced to 20 years x $89 per day x 365 x 20 = $649,700, instrument floated, cash raised today.

Our morals are being corrupted.

Our senses of compassion, tolerance, peace, selflessness are being corrupted.

Every time the herd is spooked by media fear-based campaigns it's a corruption of truth.

Corruption is everywhere. It's just packaged as 'democracy', 'freedom', the 'business cycle', 'entertainment' etc.. Delivered by used car salesmen, spin merchants, actors and bought 'experts' and.... arrggghhhh..... a pox on all their houses!

Where does it start? In every one of us.

The whole sorry mess needs a Biblical flood. Think I'll slip Noah a few quid to organise it.

[Wanderlust]

Very good Mr Plum
Now we know where it starts, how would you stop it?

[sargeant]

Exatemwah WL and if you find out let me know and ill tell mrs Sarge

and all of you good posts very true but i still reckon it starts at mrs Sarges handbag i fill it she emptys it

[sandman67]

Speed traps in the UK are automatic money printing devices for the Police

erm no they aint

They are there to stop idiots using roads as racetracks because they think they can drive like Sterling Moss along normal roads, or jump traffic lights because "theres no-one about/amber means green"....a bit like the prat that wiped my mate in Bolton out last year.

They are usually sited in places where accidents happen or speeding is rife.

You dont speed....you dont get a ticket.

Simple see.

Also, if I go one minute over my parking ticket, my car is clamped.

erm....thought of making sure you go back BEFORE your time is up and putting more dosh in....or maybe just moving your car?

Enforcing road law isn't corruption mate....not unless you are a Clarkson acolyte.



Id say it starts with the thought "I wonder if I can get away with it.....?" and a quick profit and loss calculation.

[Arcadian]

As much as I dislike speed cameras it has been proved that accidents have been reduced where they are sited, however, UK motorists main gripe is that the revenue generated is not put back into the road system.

[MrPlum]

Very good Mr Plum
Now we know where it starts, how would you stop it?

Buggered if I know. Pay the fine or go to jail!

I did once see a 10 point list on 'How to save mankind' but the download was $19.99

How about bringing back the Talley Stick? Worked well in England for more than 700 years... http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradf ... ankers.htm

Having governments print their own money without interest would cure a multitude of sins. Most of the world' wealth is concentrated in the hands of a very few people. Use that wealth to provide for the rest. It could do so many times over.

I believe there are clean technologies out there that are being suppressed to keep the Oil barons happy. Introduce them.

Detraction en-masse from lust, greed, hatred and fear by emphasising men and women's 'divine' nature and his place in the universe. Make spiritual teaching people-centred, not building-centred. Spiritual teachers should be guides.

Part of elevating mankind is a quality education, available to us all. With new technologies there is nothing to stop mankind making giant strides in learning.

Go back to working with nature and grow nutritious natural food and dump the McShiteburgers.

Use the media to lift up mankind rather than turn him into a knuckle-scraping beast. Emphasize exploration of our 'inner' being and not just outer experience or gratification of the physical senses. Either that or issue 'happy pills.'

Allow men the freedom to do as they wish as long as it doesn't harm others. End the notion of man as a unit of production. End the notion that we are separate and individual. Promote selflessness over selfishness.

Start emphasising what unites us instead of creating artificial divisions. Allow the movement of peoples across national borders. Once we stop trying to kill each other end all national borders.

Bring back Charlie Drake and Norman Wisdom.

[MrPlum]

Speed traps in the UK are automatic money printing devices for the Police

erm no they aint

They are there to stop idiots using roads as racetracks because they think they can drive like Sterling Moss along normal roads, or jump traffic lights because "theres no-one about/amber means green"....a bit like the prat that wiped my mate in Bolton out last year.

They are usually sited in places where accidents happen or speeding is rife.

You dont speed....you dont get a ticket.

Simple see.

Also, if I go one minute over my parking ticket, my car is clamped.

erm....thought of making sure you go back BEFORE your time is up and putting more dosh in....or maybe just moving your car?

Enforcing road law isn't corruption mate....not unless you are a Clarkson acolyte.



Id say it starts with the thought "I wonder if I can get away with it.....?" and a quick profit and loss calculation.

That's your opinion and I don't really care to be tarred with the 'can I get away with it' brush.

I don't have the money or the inclination to pay for two hours parking when I only need an hour. If I'm held up for reasons beyond my control, I'm obviously not trying to screw the system. When you give a reasonable reason for being held up that extra minute or two, he or she is not listening, since he's got his quotas to fill. Private companies make less money by showing tolerance. So they won't do it.

You only have to do a search for 'police speed traps revenue' and you'll drown in the results.

I once parked at the beach during the winter and went for a walk with my hound. Not a car in sight the whole length of the beach. When I came back I had a ticket. The purpose of the ticketing system was to deter long term parking in the middle of the summer. So why am I being penalized in the middle of winter and not a car in sight?

Next I was on a 30mph road in town, I had used this road for 20 years without a hint of an incident. In fact I was not aware of ANY accidents on that road. It was evident that the camera had been put there for revenue collection purposes since it was catching everyone out. Not least because it wasn't clearly signposted.

There was one newspaper article that highlighted that you could easily incur 1000 UKP in total fines just by driving to work and that motorists were being unfairly penalized.

Parking used to be free until the councils and NCP decided to concrete over every piece of available land and make money out of it. Having done that, they don't provide ENOUGH parking so people try to find a parking space wherever they can. The councils and private companies do very nicely out of it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6938572.stm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... signs.html

[Super Joe]

Speed cameras are a success story as they save lives. If some are in places that are not dangerous then I'll take the rough with the smooth without the need to read 125 books on evil-speed-trap-conspiracies-r-us
Overall the concept has saved lives, that'll do for me.

It's up to us if we decide to break the law and line the police's pockets, I can accept it without blaming anyone in a position of power for my indiscretion.


SJ

PS: Did I mention they've saved lives??

[Guess]

Speed traps in the UK are automatic money printing devices for the Police

erm no they aint

Said Punch
Oh yes they are!!!!!!!
Said Judy

That sort of naivety is what lets them get away with it. Do you think they would give a shit about your welfare if there wasn't a profit to be made out of it.

The decision to, install speed cameras is made by accountants without the need to know anything about road safety. If they found that imposing a minimum speed fine on motorways, as some have suggested, then they would do it. Any first year statistician could justify the case.

Part of the contract that Serco (the camera company) have with the local police dictates that they supply data back to the forces. This is to determine if they all pay their way. If not the empty box is left at the side of the road.

So who collates that with the data regarding injuries and deaths in the roads in that area? I think you will find that nobody does. That would be an unnecessary overhead.

It's another form of taxation that is used for the British ultra right wing government to wage war against innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan while supporting rogue terrorist states to do the same.



Wrong, yes, deceitful yes, corruption....??????

Not in the manner that the OP referred to but I think his intention was to get member's opinion on small to medium time corruption in Thailand and not to discuss the finer points of the English language

In answer to how do we stop it. Well I believe that the rot started about 100,000 years ago. The worst thing man ever did was to move off the hunting plains and settle in communities. This allowed the sudden rapid growth of the species at the expense of others even their close cousins, the Neanderthal (although sometimes in Hua Hin I feel that they still exist).

Once they (or we, should I say) gained a position of invulnerability and dominance in the animal kingdom. there was only one more hurdle to jump. That hurdle was the one that lead to supremacy over all mankind.

Many tribes and powerful individuals have been vying for power ever since. Corruption is a necessary tool to enable the unscrupulous to achieve their goals. Unfortunately it is human nature to be corrupt. To stop it you would firstly need global acceptance of it's wrongful place in society and then you would need a program of massed education.

Looking at very recent history you will soon see that it is a near impossible task. The basis of the communist religion is to make all men (and women) equal therefore making many of the negative traits that man has developed redundant. As history tells us, the whole idealist theory was flawed. One of the main reasons was thinking that all men could be equal. Many think it is their given right to be in a better position than their neighbour. So communism then flourished on the very element of corruption that they had got into power to eradicate.

We can only start to repair the damage done to society by a massive cull. This will surely happen.

The questions is when will the apocalypse take place, will this web site still be running after the and will I still be able to get bacon, eggs, English sausages, beans and tomatoes with two toast and a cup d Earl Grey afterwards.

If the answer to the second and third question is no then someone may as well press the APOCALYPSE NOW button.