Investing in Maylasia

[dtaai-maai]

the word racism is far to overused in todays world.
agree with you lomu, jealousy is a more logical reason for the discontent amongst locals.
the average thai has a pretty bleak future, poor pay & limited options to progress. when they see so many rich foreigners coming to their country & living the highlife, its no real surprise that resentment & jealousy will increase.
it's growing & will continue to do so, thats human nature.
it's the reverse in the uk at present. poorer immigrants are coming to the uk & are overtaking the working class people because of the handouts & special treatment they receive. the growing resentment against them here is perceived as racism, but again is more aligned to jealousy.

Can't agree with you much on this one, rzr.

Can agree:
1. Resentment and jealousy are not irrelevant anywhere these days.

2. To a degree, unfortunately, it's human nature (everywhere).

Can't agree:
The word 'racism' isn't overused in today's world. 'Race, creed or colour' is probably more relevant to what I'm trying to say, but there isn't a word for 'religionism.' Let's call it discrimination. I've lived in the UK, France, Pakistan and Thailand at various periods of my life, and visited many other countries, and while racism undoubtedly exists everywhere, I'd say Thailand, much as I love the place, is well up there in the racism charts. For a start, for many generations it has had a specific word (and I still haven't quite sussed out whether 'farang' is a neutral term or has mildly insulting implications) for a foreigner of European appearance (apologies to Yanks, Aussies, etc.). But they're pretty generous with their discrimination - have you ever heard any Thai say anything positive about anyone who happens to be black (apart from Tiger Woods, who doesn't count, as he's Thai)? Nobody I've ever spoken to knows quite why, but they're all the same, and most definitely not to be trusted. A throwback to the 19th century (or the mid-20th in the USA. And to be fair, probably most of Europe as well.) Seems to me that xenophobia is almost built into Thai law and, to a degree, instinctive in the way of thinking here.

Sure, there are plenty of Thais who have a bleak future, but the very few I get a negative attitude from have usually got a lot more dosh than me and drive a Merc.

For every immigrant or refugee who goes to the UK hoping for a handout, there are half a dozen more who want to work hard for a better life for their families. Unfortunately too many Brits think the world owes them a living.

More generally, black Africans discriminate against Asians, Indians discriminate against Indians of different castes, whites and blacks discriminate against each other, the Chinese discriminate against just about everybody (including each other), fundamentalist Moslems, fundamentalist Christians, fundamentalist Orthodox Jews, blahdeblahdeblah...

I haven't heard of too many fundamentalist Buddhists shouting 'death to the infidel,' and thank Whoever for that, but fanatics of any kind scare the living daylights out of me. Maybe I see the world in too many shades of grey. Where are you, Burger, I need you.

Sorry for waffling, it's late and I'm pissed. Nothing personal, rzr, but you rattled a cage somewhere in the back of my mind...

Whoever you are, wherever you live, whatever you believe (just so long as you're prepared to accept that others might not agree), in the immortal words of Dave Allen; "May your God go with you."

[Burger]

Re: The racism, I'm not whingeing about it and we didn't at the time, god knows Brits have dished it out back home to ethnics far too much.

So, as I say, not crying about it, but just wouldn't live there and put up with it, it was the same when I worked in Hong Kong on the new airport.

You get locals physically pushing in front of you in queues, like actually brushing you aside.
You get locals saying abusive things in Cantonese, which I understand enough of to know they're being derogatory.
You get Muslim hotel receptionists, dealing with you, until a Muslim customer asks them to check them in/out and they drop you and serve them first.
Waiting in a busy bar/club for a drink, then a local barges next to you and speaks the lingo and the barman serves them, knowing full well you were first, how annoying is that.
You get the same in shops, where they're serving you and drop you for a local and you have to wait until they're finsihed.
You get them staring at you like your from out of space cos your having a beer in hotel lobby, and they say something towards you, it's obviously derogatory by the stare they're giving you.
They were just looking at us like we were dirt.

Apart from that the men are pre-historic and hypocrits, in the way they make their wives dress in black from head to toe, and the way the men dress 'Westernised'. That winds me up, even though it's not my business.
Sometimes the wives have to sit outside the restaurant in the street while the men eat, I couldn't live amongst these neanderthals.

They may only be minor things but you ask most people who spent 3-4 years in Hong Kong on the airport and they ended up hating the locals and couldn't wait to get away. It's like death by a thousand cuts.

To me anyone who wishes to move to a predominantly Muslim country, which is experiencing an increase in radical fundamentalism (burning churches down etc), is plain mad, and is welcome to the place.

Their is no people more racist and intollerant of other religions than Muslims IMO.

F**k me, that was a long winded post, sorry to bore you all.

Burger

[caller]

Error.

[caller]

Unfortunately too many Brits think the world owes them a living.

Disagree with what you have to say about immigrants to the UK generally, but the above is a slur.

One example - what other country would pay £1000's to train potential doctors and then put them in a queue with others from overseas, so our guys, whose qualifications can be checked out, and they are Brits, miss out! I have family personally affected.

Madness.

A lot of Brits are now having to compete with euros, illegals and the like in unfair competiton to maintain their jobs. Why? There is a lot of anger simmering under the surface and its not going away.

All most Brits want is a Govt. that actually recognises that, er, as Brits, they have a place in the pecking order, seems reasonable to me?

The present Govt. (not unique) are so out of touch. Its gonna bounce back at some stage.

[redzonerocker]

we are all entitled to our opinion on matters of the world & sometimes we have to agree to disagree

For every immigrant or refugee who goes to the UK hoping for a handout, there are half a dozen more who want to work hard for a better life for their families. Unfortunately too many Brits think the world owes them a living.

d-m, i think you are well wide of the mark on your satistics. why are so many refugees/asylum seekers by-passing safe havens on their way to the uk? why are there still refugee camps on the french coast? it's because of the generous handouts they get when they arrive here, no other reason.
living in the inner city you see & experience the problems that are being caused by this mass immigration,unlike the politicians living in the leafy suburbs & country hamlets.
agreed,there is discrimination in all parts of the world & in various guises.
there is though, nothing wrong with patriosm which far to many times gets misinterpreted as racism.
the religious side of matters (as burger points out) is more prevalent in muslims. having lived & worked in several muslim countries i have seen it first hand. have to agree, they can be rude,arrogant & very hypocritical people.
i will probably take a trip to malaysia at some point & see for myself what its really like

[johnnyk]

Discontent in southern Thailand is far more complex than simply "Muslim fanatics" which is the pigeon-hole response of many westerners.
Its useful to remember that the 3 southern provinces were hived off from what was Malaya, now Malaysia, about 100 years ago.
My sense is that apart from the religious difference there are ethnic differences plus the desire to live in a country richer than Thailand with a better education system.

[Big Boy]

caller wrote:

A lot of Brits are now having to compete with euros, illegals and the like in unfair competiton to maintain their jobs. Why? There is a lot of anger simmering under the surface and its not going away.

All most Brits want is a Govt. that actually recognises that, er, as Brits, they have a place in the pecking order, seems reasonable to me?

Did you hear this week's Lib Dem classic? All of these illegal immigrants to the UK are hard done by - lets legalise them.

A vote winning statement - I don't think.

[Burger]

johnnyk wrote:

Discontent in southern Thailand is far more complex than simply "Muslim fanatics" which is the pigeon-hole response of many westerners.

Agree, but no farang would move down there, surely ??

You'd be mad too.

I'm staying in safe little Hua Hin, as far away from any of these nutters as possible.
I come from London and there's more nutters and weirdo's there now than there is in an Al Queda training camp (maybe a slight exaggeration )

Burger

[webmaster]

Agree, but no farang would move down there, surely ??

You'd be mad too.

I'm staying in safe little Hua Hin, as far away from any of these nutters as possible.

As we all know, in all the countries there are cities/places/areas that foreigners wouldn't/shouldn't live. Same applies to all countries as well as Malaysia but you have called the entire Malaysia "Bintabaht toilet", which is wrong.

Have you been to Penang? There are more churches in Penang than you will have in a small UK town. Or there are more religions represented by their temples any where than a small UK city. Mosques, Churches, Budhist, Chinese temples all in one small island.

Addition to the points I made in my previous post:

The racism and discrimination is evident and enforced by Thai laws.

1- When you apply for a work permit and Non-immigrant-B visa first-time or a renewal, you must have the salary forced by labour and immigration laws, regardless of what your position is in the company.

(A few examples if you are:)
American 70,000 THB
Brithish 50,000 THB
Italian 40,000 THB
Turkish, 35,000 THB
Indian 22,000THB,
Algerian 18,000 THB

Then you must pay 7% of your salary as your personal income tax every month and an annual fee based on your salary.

Does that make it a pure racism/discrimination enforced by the government? YES IT DOES.

The other law enforced things like, entry fees to museums/parks are 10 to 20 times more for the foreigners are a part of our daily life.

Did you know, there are different words in Thai language to differentiate your status (pi/nong) as a foreigner, not only "Farang" which only applies to European white skin people.

Don't get me started on to day to day living hassles or charges just because we are foreigners (all races, colour and countries). Any one who lived in Thailand more than 5 years, will have enough stories to complete their own 500 page book.

I agree some things are more visible in Muslim countries, because of their dress code, but there are more that meets the eye to racism/discrimination than religion itself.

[Burger]

webmaster wrote:

As we all know, in all the countries there are cities/places/areas that foreigners wouldn't/shouldn't live. Same applies to all countries as well as Malaysia but you have called the entire Malaysia "Bintabaht toilet", which is wrong. Have you been to Penang?

Yes, I've been to Penang, KL and Johor Bahru.
I accept I'm generalising but I found all those areas the same.
There may be some better areas in Malaysia to live.

But my experiences of all them areas, and the people I went with, led us to believe it was one giant lavatory.

I couldn't care less if it's easier to get visa, own land, work etc, if I don't like the place what's the point.
The nightlife is pony there, that's important to me, so wouldn't go on that alone.

There's more and more reports of increased radicalism there, which areas I don't know, maybe not in the areas you'd go to live, but it could soon spread ........................

Burger

[Burger]

Sh!t like this would worry me:

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia—Fresh from passing laws prescribing stoning, whipping and amputation in a state it controls, an Islamic fundamentalist party has vowed to impose the harsh penalties across Malaysia if it ever takes national power. Abdul Hadi Awang, chief minister of Terengganu state and leader of the Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party, was quoted by The Star newspaper Tuesday as saying that the Islamic laws will apply to non-Muslims ‘when the time comes'.
That'll be fun, being there if or when 'the time comes' for your missus to get stoned to death in the street for revealing her cleavage

Dec. 4, 2006 issue - The meeting of the united Malays National Organization, the ruling pro-Muslim party in Malaysia, was a shocking display of divisiveness. Some UMNO delegates at the rally gave speeches that, either explicitly or in veiled terms, were racist or called for violence as a means of settling religious or political differences. One of them, Hasnoor Sidang Hussein, declared: "UMNO is willing to risk lives and bathe in blood in defense of race and religion." Education Minister Hishammuddin Hussein unsheathed a dagger at the meeting. Party supporters perceived the gesture as invoking Malay power and pride, but critics said the minister was pandering to racist elements in UMNO's youth wing.

The Malaysian government's arrest this week of Chae Kumae Kuteh, a Malaysian citizen who is the alleged mastermind of the violence in southern Thailand, should come as a sobering wake-up call to Malaysia.

Though predominantly Muslim, Malaysia enjoys a variety of minority faiths, adding to its cultural mix. However, just as in many other Muslim countries, extremist groups have emerged to create problems for Christians, this time as a reaction to the US's attacks on Afghanistan.
The primary targets have been churches, with a number of incidents of burning and bombing cited since Sept. 11, 2001. Police believe members of the Malaysian Mujahideen Group (Kumpulan Militan Malaysia) are responsible for at least some of the incidents.
Violence is nothing new to the KMM, whose members were reportedly trained in Afghanistan. They have been previously accused of a series of crimes, including the bombing of a church and a Hindu temple.
Many militant Islamic groups are linking up with separatists in the south of the country. It is believed that militant Islam in Malaysia is influenced by extremist groups in surrounding nations such as Indonesia’s Laskar Jihad.
The Prime Minister has previously warned of a network of extremists in the region that is bent on establishing a union of Islamic governments in Malaysia

Christians in Malaysia Unnerved by Church Attacks, Anthrax Threat
Pacific Rim Bureau (CNSNews.com) - Christians in Malaysia are feeling uneasy about their security at a time of heightened tensions in the Muslim world. Recent attacks on churches and an "anthrax" scare have done little to help.
Over the past two weeks, three Malaysian churches had been damaged by alleged arsonists.

The 2000 al-Qaeda Summit was a meeting of several high-level al-Qaeda members held in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.[1][2]
The meeting was held in the hotel room of Yazid Sufaat, a former army captain and businessman, in a hotel in Kuala Lumpur. The meeting lasted from January 5 to January 8, 2000. The summit's purpose was allegedly to plan future attacks, which apparently included the October 2000 bombing of the USS Cole and the 9/11 plot

Christian churches in Malaysia have been under attack as extremist Islamic groups reacted to the U.S.-led military attacks on Afghanistan.
The latest of a series of arson attempts on Christian churches took place on October 27, when extremists set ablaze the Christ Community Center Church in Subang Jaya.
A fortnight before this, extremists attempted to torch the Catholic Church of Christ the King in Sungai Petani, a city about 190 miles northwest of Kuala Lumpur in the northern state of Kedah, the home state of Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad.
In a separate attack, Molotov cocktails were thrown at St Philip’s Catholic Center on October 14 in Segamat in the southern state of Johore

[webmaster]

Yes, I've been to Penang, KL and Johor Bahru.
I accept I'm generalising but I found all those areas the same.
There may be some better areas in Malaysia to live.

But my experiences of all them areas, and the people I went with, led us to believe it was one giant lavatory.

I couldn't care less if it's easier to get visa, own land, work etc, if I don't like the place what's the point.
The nightlife is pony there, that's important to me, so wouldn't go on that alone.

There's more and more reports of increased radicalism there, which areas I don't know, maybe not in the areas you'd go to live, but it could soon spread ........................

Burger

Going back to Original Post Owner,

Yes invest in Malaysia unless:

You are hanging out with the wrong people, which will only show you areas will look like "one giant lavatory":

But my experiences of all them areas, and the people I went with, led us to believe it was one giant lavatory.

It's a big country with lots of different cultures, languages, races built-in (Malay, English, Dutch, Chinese, Portuguese, Indian, Thai, Indonesian, Australian, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist), educated people and more FOREIGNER FRIENDLY GOVERNMENT.
And least but not the last if the night life is less important for you:

If you care more about the following, as well as the ETC part:

I couldn't care less if it's easier to get visa, own land, work etc, if I don't like the place what's the point.

The nightlife is pony there, that's important to me, so wouldn't go on that alone.

Otherwise don't invest in Hua Hin, go to other places like Pattaya or Bangkok, or even some other Asian/Latin American countries.

In Hua Hin, you will find more family and business minded people, not like some of the other infamous place names in Thailand, but then again "I am a sexpat, don't care about where I live as long as my ***** is satisfied" kind of people are living in all the villages/towns/cities in any country.

I suggest to visit both the places before you make up your mind.

My simple example will be:

If you decide to live in United Arab Emirates (UAE - We lived there 3 years):

There are 7 emirates (states under 7 different family ruling) and all of them are under Sheria Law (strict Muslim regulations)

In Dubai you will get the top of the top, technology, freedom, service, efficiency, convenience.

Next door emirate Sharjah, they will arrest you both, if they catch you in your own car with a Muslim woman (yes she might be your house maid and you are taking her back home).

Or in Ras Al Kahaima you will be arrested, just because a woman reported you to the police because you stared at her.

But then again, all the big names including Beckhams bought their own dream homes (island in Elton John's case) in UAE.

The biggest companies in the world Microsoft, SUN, BP, HSBC, Visa, CitiBank have their regional offices in Dubai. (same as Penang in Malaysia)

It all depends in the area you live in, as well as whom your aides are.

Wishing you good luck.

Edited for typo

[Burger]

Dubai is toally different to Penang, like comparing apples with helicopters, it's that different.

I've sited loads of examples of the rise in extremism in Malaysia, which I do not see you countering.

Nightlife does not equate to 'sex', obviously it does in your mind, some of us like to go to decent bars and clubs in Bangkok, not of the Nana variety.

Good luck to you and anyone who goes there, I hope it doesn't turn bad for your sakes.

You're welcome to the place, just not for me.

Burger

[HHTel]

Seems to be lots of emphasis on the 'predominantly Muslim population' of Malaysia. Although it's a declared Muslim country, the Muslim population is only 52%. I don't consider that overwhelming.

I've been to Malaysia several times, never had a problem and is certainly my second choice for somewhere to live if this country makes it much more difficult.

I've met many Muslims there who don't dress in the 'traditional style'. When asked why, I'm told that the Koran doesn't direct women to dress in a specific garb but to dress respectfully. Unfortunately, we only hear from the extremists. A bit like 'bad news' always gets more exposure than 'good news'.

If made too difficult to live in Thailand, I would definately look at Langkawi. Heard and read many good reports.

I won't bore you with more of my view of Malaysia. I think enough has been said on both sides.

[PeteC]

Although it's a declared Muslim country, the Muslim population is only 52%. I don't consider that overwhelming.

Part and parcel to all this is that the Chinese in Malaysia carry a big stick, economically, as they do everywhere over here.

I seem to remember years ago (decades) there was a crackdown on Chinese people there that almost put the country into bankruptcy. It ended very quickly and I don't think we'll see any "push" by any sect, race or religion there to disrupt normal life again. It's not Indonesia.

Mahatmir(sp) was/is an ego maniac. His era is gone and I think we'll be seeing the "motherland" following the "colony" (Singapore) very closely for decades to come. Singapore is a success story, Malaysia is not, yet. Pete

PS: In addition, they have the best tourist jingle on the planet and have had it for years...."Malaysia truly Asia..." with great babes diving into crystal blue/green seas..... Good stuff! Thailand came up with "Amazing Thailand" right after that commercial came out....close but no cigar.