So tell me the worst on housing

Ask here about the pleasures and pitfalls of buying, selling or renting property and real estate in Hua Hin. Building, design and construction topics welcome. Commercial or promotional posts for real estate companies or private properties are forbidden.
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Jockey
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Post by Jockey »

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but those that decided to buy a house 2/3 years ago will have seen price rises of between 50 to 100%. The amount of house projects in Hua Hin is incredible. Surely the supply is now far greater than the demand and project owners are going to find it very competitive to sell the houses they are building? Yet the houses keep going up!

Some people are buying land and are thinking its only a matter of time before they make a vast profit from their investment. But is the bubble about to burst?

Reasons why house prices could fall:


1. The property 'boom' in Europe is over. Prices are levelling out. The market could fall as predicted by many leading advisors. If so expect a ripple effect over here in Thailand.

2. House prices rose dramatically while the baht was weak. When I bought my house the rate was 75 baht to the pound. Now its about 66 baht to the pound. So an investor from abroad has to pay about 15% more than he would have a few months ago - all because of the exchange rate!

3. The Thai political scene is unstable. Corruption is rife. What if all the 'psuedo companys' set up to buy house's and land are investigated. Could the land be confiscated and the 'guilty' Ferang sent out the country?

4. Too many house projects could lead to supply outstripping demand. I already see many developments which look almost abandoned (or is that normal) :wink:

5. Some projects admittedly sell fast, but re-sales can take years. What happens when re-sales are cheaper than the houses being built on the same projects?

Reasons why house prices could rise:

1. Prices have been rising since 1998 and there is no indication of this stopping.

2. Thailand, and particularly Hua Hin is becoming more popular with tourists.

3. People are living longer and the cost of living in Europe is still astronomical compared with Thailand.

4. People tend to believe what they want to believe, hence the complete denial that putting your land and house in a company that does not trade, with 6 Thai shareholders you may never have even met, is a big risk.

5. Two 'world class' golf courses being built in Hua Hin is creating a frenzy of 'get-rich-quick' land speculators.

In my humble opinion, I think house prices will go up in desirable areas, such as Kho Takiab and other areas near the beach - not sparce land which happens to be near a new golf course. Well located projects will sell but out-of-the-way cheap houses could become future scheme 'ghettos' and may struggle, certainly in the re-sale market.

One last observation. There seems to be 2 classes of price. Some people put their house on the market at prices way beyond their worth, speculating that some poor fool may pay over the odds. It does not cost them anything to advertise their house with the many estate agents in Hua Hin, so they can not lose to chance their luck, hence there are houses which have been on the market for a very long time. Then there are houses which are put on the market at realistic prices, because the owner genuinely wants to sell. It is difficult to guage what prices houses are actually sold for, because the land office is frequently told the land was sold cheaper then what it was actually bought for (to save the seller / buyer paying high taxes on the sale).
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Post by Burger »

Good post Jockey.
For me, property prices and demand in Hua Hin is still rising. As long as the hordes of buyers that are arriving day by day continues, then the 'bursting of the bubble' is still a way off.
The pessimists in London (and I guess throughout the UK) were giving the same 'bubble bursting' warnings back in 1994 when prices started to rapidly rise, those of us that were a bit braver never saw it 'burst', but saw prices level out a few of years back around 2002, 200% higher than in 1994.
Those that are not concerned about any potential change in the company ownership laws are currently making money, those that are abstaining and renting are losing money and making the landlords richer.

He who dares Rodders, he who dares.

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Post by johnnyk »

Companies are totally legal, operating under the same rules as any number of Thai companies. Just keep the books, show turnover and pay a bit of tax.
People are buying because the Euro/North american housing boom has freed up equity and a decent house in Thailand buys a Lexus SUV elsewhere (mind you the SUV has air con and can navigate mall parking lots like a yak in the Hindu Kush).
A good house in a good location is never a bad move.
Marginal/poor houses in marg/poor locations are seldom a good move. Samesame everywhere.
Corruption in Thailand is nothing new, only to those who are naive or not paying attention. Its a way of life, everybody knows about it no big deal except when someone's greed outstrips even tolerant Thai standards.
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Post by Jockey »

johnnyk wrote:Companies are totally legal, operating under the same rules as any number of Thai companies. Just keep the books, show turnover and pay a bit of tax.
It is not 'legal' to buy land in a 'company's' name in the pretence the company needs the land in which to operate, therefore most land bought by Ferangs and which is 'owned' by the companies they had set up is not legitimate. This is something which is at present overlooked by the authorities, but the subject has apparently been debated already in the Thai parliament.
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Post by gaijin »

The above are all valid points. In buying in Thailand, as anywhere else, one is looking at both the macro and micro.

In respect to macro factors, we are looking at the growth prospects for Thailand, which in part depend on growth rates in Thailand's main trading partners. I would suggest that Thailand will be a beneficiary of regional growth spearheaded by China and India. Thailand also stands to benefit from the economic development taking place in Vietnam and Cambodia.

I was able to observe the "multiplier effect" of the economic spin off for Cambodia from growth in the North Asian region when I was recently in Siem Reap (Cambodia). I was told that that their biggest source of tourists was from Korea, followed by Japan and then China.

At the micro level, HH is changing and changing rapidly. HH is no longer a sleepy little fishing village with a small tourist industry.
Significant development has taken place over the last 5 years, and HH is becoming a major tourist destination. I would doubt that someone who had last stayed in HH at the Melia (now the Hilton) would now recognise the town.

As with anything there will be ups and downs. However, the HH will not go back to being the sleepy little hamlet that it once was. Even if the Thai housing market does take a tumble, the HH market will continue to benefit from the town's transformation into one of the must visit destinations in Asia.

Some of the housing is decidedly tacky. But as stated in an earlier post: "A good house in a good location is never a bad move.
Marginal/poor houses in marg/poor locations are seldom a good move."

I have to no avail tried to get responses to the question of where will HH be in 5 years from now? However, the answer to that question will to a large part answer the questions posed about the worth of buying in HH.
Finally, currency movements need to be considered and understood
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Post by johnnyk »

Jockey wrote:
johnnyk wrote:Companies are totally legal, operating under the same rules as any number of Thai companies. Just keep the books, show turnover and pay a bit of tax.
It is not 'legal' to buy land in a 'company's' name in the pretence the company needs the land in which to operate, therefore most land bought by Ferangs and which is 'owned' by the companies they had set up is not legitimate. This is something which is at present overlooked by the authorities, but the subject has apparently been debated already in the Thai parliament.
Nonsense.
Totally legal, ask a good lawyer.
Why are you using parentheses around the word legal?
The company is a Thai company within Thai law.
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Post by Burger »

It is not 'legal' to buy land in a 'company's' name in the pretence the company needs the land in which to operate, therefore most land bought by Ferangs and which is 'owned' by the companies they had set up is not legitimate.
I think that as the farang's company office, (their house), is based on the land they just bought, then yes, ofcourse the company needs the land in which to operate.
It's more a question of the 'company' than the land.
But let's give the Thai authorities a bit of credit here, if for one minute anyone thinks that they are not fully aware of what's going on, then think again. THEY were the one's who set up this criteria in which we can buy land, they want foreign investment, the government has publically made that clear.
The trick is, THEY want to be in control of the amount of investment (quite rightly too), and they have the apparatus in place to tighten/close any 'loop holes', as and when, they feel the level of foreign investment in land etc is getting too much.
That is all they will do, they won't face the wrath of the Western world and lose crucial tourism/investment by suddenly telling all us farangs we illegally hold land and we have to dispose of it asap.
Let's get real here chaps.

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Post by tuktukmike »

There is a scenario i am curious about.

Many farangs come out here on a retirement o visa then register a company to buy their house, if i am not mistaken you are forbiden to do any type of work on this visa including owning a company.

If this is the case then i am starting to understand why an old couple had to pay a fine???.

But of course we all do or should know that the regulations are in place to boot out anyone who has circumvented the laws here, its just a question of if they decide to enforce these laws.

Only time will tell.

Mike.
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Post by Burger »

tuktukmike wrote:
Many farangs come out here on a retirement o visa then register a company to buy their house, if i am not mistaken you are forbiden to do any type of work on this visa including owning a company.
But of course we all do or should know that the regulations are in place to boot out anyone who has circumvented the laws here, its just a question of if they decide to enforce these laws.
Mike,
1) You are permitted to work on a retirement visa, you just need to apply for a work permit the same as any other type of visa. Work permits are easy to obtain by the way.
2) You are permitted under Thai law to own a company and file tax returns etc WITHOUT the need of a work permit. It's only when/if you start running a business from your comapny, that you need staff and a work permit.
Therefore, no-one is 'circumventing the laws' and 'booting out' etc does not apply.


If you need advice from a good solicitor, PM me and I will give you the address of one who has an office both in Bangkok and Hua Hin, and spreads his time between the two. His English is bettererer than mine!

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Post by lomuamart »

The things I've never been able to grasp are the fundamental laws.
So, if you interpret them here as essentially not allowing a non-Thai to own land (and there are plenty of those), then how can company law be used to circumvent that?
I suppose it's chicken and egg.
Please someone, point me in the direction of a law in Thailand that categorically states that a non-Thai can own land as long as they've formed a company.
I'll stand corrected, but I don't think you'll fine one.
To use one body of law - company - to get around another - property - is simply not legal. It wouldn't hold court in the UK and remember that the laws here are based on the UK's. Interpretation and enforcement are separate issues.
I'm not trying to be argumentative. This is a genuine request for information to finally put this moot point to rest.
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Post by tuktukmike »

Hi Burger

Maybe i must have something wrong with my eyesight but from the DFT website.

NON-IMMIGRANT VISA "O-A" (LONG STAY) - visa for retired persons


This type of visa will be issued to applicants aged 50 years or above. Holders of this type of visa will be permitted to stay in Thailand for one year and may not work while staying in Thailand.
I. QUALIFICATION OF THE APPLICANT



* A foreign national whose age is 50 years or above (on the date of submitting the application).
* Not being prohibited from entering the Kingdom under the Immigration Act B.E. 2522 (A.D.1979).
* Having no criminal record against the security of Thailand and the country of his/her nationality, or the country of his/her residence.
* Having the nationality of or the residence in the country where his/her application is submitted.
* Not having prohibitive diseases (Leprosy, Tuberculosis, Drug Addiction, Elephantiasis and Third step of Syphilis) as indicated in the Ministerial Regulation No.14 (B.E. 2535).
* Not allowed to work in Thailand.

Mike.
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Post by tuktukmike »

Sorry repeated
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Post by Burger »

lomuamart wrote:
Please someone, point me in the direction of a law in Thailand that categorically states that a non-Thai can own land as long as they've formed a company.
There is no such law that says the 'non-Thai' owns the land because he has set up a company, but under Thai law the company to own the land (company assets). The 'non-Thai' is given control of the voting rights, and only the 'non-Thai' can decide when to sell that land, and for how much, and which bank account the funds are to be transferred to.

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Post by lomuamart »

Burger wrote:lomuamart wrote:
Please someone, point me in the direction of a law in Thailand that categorically states that a non-Thai can own land as long as they've formed a company.
There is no such law that says the 'non-Thai' owns the land because he has set up a company, but under Thai law the company to own the land (company assets). The 'non-Thai' is given control of the voting rights, and only the 'non-Thai' can decide when to sell that land, and for how much, and which bank account the funds are to be transferred to.

Burger
OK. So same, same, but different.
It's all about control as a previous poster rightly said.
I just feel that the Thai mindset is fundamentally nationalistic and I don't have a problem with that.
However, for a Thai to see his/her country slowly being taken over by others will, I think, provoke a reaction at some point.
The country has to decide whether it is really genuine in its statements about welcoming foreign investment. I'm sure that on the one hand the money pouring in, in dribs and drabs, is appreciated, but on the other, there's still the psyche of Thainess.
That's what I was trying to get at before. The laws are not there, but their interpretation and enforcement are another matter.
For me, that's not a good foundation for investment. Just my opinion.
And as a PS, try getting money out of this country legitimately if you can't demonstrate a link back to your's.
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Post by Burger »

Mike,

Just checked with my friend who obtained work permit. Yes you're right, what they did for him was change his 'retirement visa' to a 'business 'B' visa. He said it was quite painless and still enables him to renew his visa for 12 months at a time, the same as the retirement one.
So basically anyone with a retirement visa can easily obtain a work permit should they wish to operate a business via their company. Obviously if they do not, then the run the risk of trouble with the authorities and fines.

However, the fact remains that those people coming over here on retirement visas and forming companies purely to buy their house, do not need to obtain a work permit under current Thai law.

Burger
Last edited by Burger on Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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