The farcical thing now is that the thread has gone right off topic onto speed cameras and driving law enforcement in general so it might as well be renamed Fish & Chips.[/quote]
Brilliant...
Where does corruption start?
Cycles
Corruption isn't new.
I wonder if anyone can come up with examples from history of societies transforming from being corrupt into paragons of virtue?
My own thinking is it requires a moral concensus and strong oversight and a legal system that isn't deliberately impenetrable. Religion has previously been the moral driving force in many countries, with little separation between Church and State.
The U.S. 'Constitutional Republic' was the first constitution that was secular or even pagan in concept. It tried to incorporate the best of previous models without the freedom-choking, hierarchical stranglehold of the Church. 'All men are equal'. It never really had a chance of preventing corruption once it worshipped the God of money. In the White House we see how a bunch of right wing chancers has destroyed Washington and that poison will understandably seep down into the masses. If they can get away with it, why can't we?
In China 'Hu called for a system to regulate the use of power to "gradually remove the soil that generates corruption." The system should punish and prevent corruption through promoting education, in strict compliance with regulations and supervision.'
China is having a difficult time, despite executing serious offenders.
Islamic countries have extreme punishments which deter crime and have as a result been relatively stable, (until Imperial powers took a fancy to them).
There have been ages of great Art, literature and learning in the past. Was that also due to extreme sanction if you transgress?
[/list]
I wonder if anyone can come up with examples from history of societies transforming from being corrupt into paragons of virtue?
My own thinking is it requires a moral concensus and strong oversight and a legal system that isn't deliberately impenetrable. Religion has previously been the moral driving force in many countries, with little separation between Church and State.
The U.S. 'Constitutional Republic' was the first constitution that was secular or even pagan in concept. It tried to incorporate the best of previous models without the freedom-choking, hierarchical stranglehold of the Church. 'All men are equal'. It never really had a chance of preventing corruption once it worshipped the God of money. In the White House we see how a bunch of right wing chancers has destroyed Washington and that poison will understandably seep down into the masses. If they can get away with it, why can't we?
In China 'Hu called for a system to regulate the use of power to "gradually remove the soil that generates corruption." The system should punish and prevent corruption through promoting education, in strict compliance with regulations and supervision.'
China is having a difficult time, despite executing serious offenders.
Islamic countries have extreme punishments which deter crime and have as a result been relatively stable, (until Imperial powers took a fancy to them).
There have been ages of great Art, literature and learning in the past. Was that also due to extreme sanction if you transgress?
[/list]
On the point of examples from history, could mention a thought, don't know if it holds a lot of water or not, but maybe this is why socialism/communism lost to greedy capitalism.
Socialism/communism sounds logical on an idealistic level but never addressed the fact that societies are full of greed/avarice, corruption and the human desire to self-enrich, over their fellow people.
Even China has given up communism in all but name, they are fully sighned-up capitalists and very good at it.
Not sure, just occurred to me.
Oh, yeh, this thread has drifted considerably from 'corruption in Thailand and where it starts in Thai society'. Maybe we should start to 'yank it back' on target.
Socialism/communism sounds logical on an idealistic level but never addressed the fact that societies are full of greed/avarice, corruption and the human desire to self-enrich, over their fellow people.
Even China has given up communism in all but name, they are fully sighned-up capitalists and very good at it.
Not sure, just occurred to me.
Oh, yeh, this thread has drifted considerably from 'corruption in Thailand and where it starts in Thai society'. Maybe we should start to 'yank it back' on target.
Resolve dissolves in alcohol
Last season's league table has been published, and 'we' finished joint 84th.
Link: http://www.infoplease.com/world/statist ... tions.html
Out of our neighbours Malaysia, HK & Singapore finished above us boooooo, but Philippines, Vietnam, Cambodia, Indonesia & Laos finished below us huraaaaaay.
Unfortunately 84th place does NOT get you into Europe huraaaaay, but we can join West Ham in the Inter-Two-Baht Cup (formerly known as the Inter-Two-Bob Cup, for all you football fans).
SJ
Link: http://www.infoplease.com/world/statist ... tions.html
Out of our neighbours Malaysia, HK & Singapore finished above us boooooo, but Philippines, Vietnam, Cambodia, Indonesia & Laos finished below us huraaaaaay.
Unfortunately 84th place does NOT get you into Europe huraaaaay, but we can join West Ham in the Inter-Two-Baht Cup (formerly known as the Inter-Two-Bob Cup, for all you football fans).
SJ
Babushka
Nice quote. I spent a couple of months in Russia 4 years ago and was surprised to find older people nostalgic for the 'old days'. Free education, transport, hospitals, housing and a plot of land to grow beetroot for the delicious Borsch soup. Now they have to fend for themselves they have both 'miseries' and inequality.STEVE G wrote:The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Winston Churchill.