Psychiatry - A Dark Art

[Khundon1975]

K 1975 NOT condoning selling street drugs for survival. Just explaining that in under-educated impoverished areas where the inhabitants CAN'T get a job, many resort to drug sales. These are the prison population majority that fill our prisons. It is NOT just laziness, it is also AVAILABILITY of work.
From what I read here many of the burglary crimes there are done by unemployed construction workers that have no other alternatives. Have been the victim of burlary/theft MANY times myself, do NOT like it or condone it, but at least I understand it as MORE than just laziness. YOU may be able to get a job because of your education and racial majority position, but others are less fortunate.
And yes drugs DID have an effect on me, just not the legal pharmaceutical ones so much. But I grew up watching TV that told us there was a quick fix for everything, just take a pill. So as a naive teenager I did. Legal drug advertising also increases illegal drug sales as some of the drugs sold on the street come from legal prescriptions.

Twat DQ

LAnative

I understand what you are trying to say but in the UK as in the USA if there is no work locally, then we go in search of it.
The same as the construction workers in Thailand, who move from site to site, province to province to get work.

There is almost always an alternative to crime, as there is to unemployment, if you take the time to look.

Standing on a street corner selling dope to all and sundry, is done out of laziness and greed, not for survival.

With respect LAnative, no argument that you may put forward will change my mind on that.

I think you will agree, that the bigger their habit, the more crime they commit to feed it, at least prison breaks that circle, even if only for a while.
One could argue, that by these criminals taking illegal drugs, rather than seeking help to quit, they are the main contributor to the decline in their mental health.

[LAnative]

London Boy told me to give it a rest so I must do as told. If I woke anybody up by starting MANY threads, sorry if I disturbed you. Hope you can get back to sleep easily.

DQ BGB EW etc

[Super Joe]

many resort to drug sales. These are the prison population majority that fill our prisons.

Nonsense. Try 20% for overall drug-related, logic tells you more is for possession than selling but lets say 50/50. So 10% of prison inmates is the 'majority' is it.

Black man caught with crack (the cheap form of Cocaine) will nearly always do more time than white guy caught with powdered coke. This is NOT an isolated incident

Nonsense. Ofcourse it's not an isolated incident, your law on crack penalties are far more severe than powder, due to its physical addictiveness and related crime.

crack (the cheap form of Cocaine)

Nonsense. Far more expensive for the regular user. Don't be fooled like the estimated 2-3 Million addicts were by the availability of a small $5 rock that gives an intense high for 15 minutes followed by severe withdrawal. This was the crux of the problem. Greatest sales ploy of all time??

And yes drugs DID have an effect on me

Nonsen ...... Really??, can't say I've noticed

SJ

[MrPlum]

http://www.cchr.org/#/home

This series of videos is called 'Psychiatry: An industry of death'

It's a Panorama-like expose. In the U.S. it was '60 Minutes'. Both 'biased' but millions were allowed to watch it all the same. It highlights the History of Psychiatry and its methods. No popcorn for this one. It will sicken you.


'holy one'. I like it. And still focusing on me and not the issues raised. Standard fare for message boards.

Ad Hominem

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.

[MrPlum]

"We are the World.... We are the children...."
http://www.naturalnews.com/026429_heroi ... Bayer.html

'Bayer, of course, is a German pharmaceutical company with all sorts of interesting ties to Nazi Germany and the medical experiments conducted on Jewish prisoners during World War II. In 1956, for example, Fritz ter Meer became the chairman of Bayer. What's so interesting about that? This was after he served seven years in prison for carrying out experiments on Jewish prisoners at Auschwitz.'


'The secret history of Big Pharma's role in creating and marketing heroin, LSD, meth, Ecstasy and speed'

http://www.naturalnews.com/021768_meth_ ... anies.html

'Quick! Shoot the messenger! Shoot the messenger!'

[Super Joe]

And still focusing on me and not the issues raised. Standard fare for message boards.

No, I've commented on many of the issues raised, gave personal reasons why I challenge and disagree with your self-admitted biases and negative opinion's on the subject. But as per usual you conveniently cherry-pick the comment that suits you best in an attempt to make it out to be some kind of personal vendetta. Others have noted this too recently. Standard fare from you.

Re: Your Link to CCHR video which wouldn't load for me. Looked them up and found the following:
- Founded by, sponsored by and works closely with the Church of Scientology
- CCHR does not provide medical advice. But states if a person feels mentally ill they should see a medical doctor
- Their 'Alternative' advice for mental disorders is medical treatment and a healthy diet.
- CCHR via their co-founder and active board member psychiatrist Thomas Szasz believes the following:
- Mental illness does not exist but is a 'myth', but just 'problems with living'.
- That psychiatry is a repressive arm of the state as a tool for social control, it can be used to imprison innocent people.
- Modern medicine is the secularisation of religion's hold on human kind.
- Behavioral disorders, such as schizophrenia are "fake diseases," and scientific categories are used for power control.
- Death control: Individuals should be able to choose when to die without interference from medicine or the state.
- Right to Drugs: Narcotic addiction is not a "disease" to be cured through legal drugs and argue in favor of a narcotics free-market.
- Criticize the "war on drugs", arguing that using drugs was in fact a victimless crime.
- Criticize psychiatry, highlighting its campaigns against masturbation at the end of the 19th century (w@nkers).
- Wrote: "If you talk to God, you are praying, if God talks to you, you have schizophrenia. If the dead talk to you, you are a spiritualist, if you talk to the dead, you are a schizophrenic

Organisations that reject that mental illness is a 'myth' include the American Psychiatric Association (APA), the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), the National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI), the President's New Freedom Commission on Mental Health, the National Alliance for Research on Schizophrenia and Depression (NARSAD), the National Mental Health Association (NMHA), and the Treatment Advocacy Center (TAC).

Thought: Religious whackjobs ?

SJ

[MrPlum]

Re: Your Link to CCHR video which wouldn't load for me. Looked them up and found the following:
- Founded by, sponsored by and works closely with the Church of Scientology
- CCHR does not provide medical advice. But states if a person feels mentally ill they should see a medical doctor
- Their 'Alternative' advice for mental disorders is medical treatment and a healthy diet.
- CCHR via their co-founder and active board member psychiatrist Thomas Szasz believes the following:
- Mental illness does not exist but is a 'myth', but just 'problems with living'.
- That psychiatry is a repressive arm of the state as a tool for social control, it can be used to imprison innocent people.
- Modern medicine is the secularisation of religion's hold on human kind.
- Behavioral disorders, such as schizophrenia are "fake diseases," and scientific categories are used for power control.
- Death control: Individuals should be able to choose when to die without interference from medicine or the state.
- Right to Drugs: Narcotic addiction is not a "disease" to be cured through legal drugs and argue in favor of a narcotics free-market.
- Criticize the "war on drugs", arguing that using drugs was in fact a victimless crime.
- Criticize psychiatry, highlighting its campaigns against masturbation at the end of the 19th century (w@nkers).
- Wrote: "If you talk to God, you are praying, if God talks to you, you have schizophrenia. If the dead talk to you, you are a spiritualist, if you talk to the dead, you are a schizophrenic

Organisations that reject that mental illness is a 'myth' include the American Psychiatric Association (APA), the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), the National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI), the President's New Freedom Commission on Mental Health, the National Alliance for Research on Schizophrenia and Depression (NARSAD), the National Mental Health Association (NMHA), and the Treatment Advocacy Center (TAC).

Thought: Religious whackjobs ?

You could list 100 Psychiatric Organizations. I doubt if any will agree that what they practice is a 'myth'.

'Religious whackjobs'?
Do you think like this about all religions? Or just Scientology? They may well be but you provide no evidence that what they say is incorrect. You just flagged the connection to Scientology so you could dismiss them with a smear.

You posted their views. Not sure whether you agree, disagree or did so for information purposes.

- So Psychiatry had a campaign against masturbation and Dr Szasz criticized it. Good for him.

- Narcotic addiction is not a mental disease.
If an addiction is a 'mental disease' then we are all in trouble. Smoking. Comfort eating. Coffee drinking. Alcoholism. And what of addiction to anti-depressants? Isn't this a 'mental disease' too?

- Death control
Quite agree. It's my body. My life. What right does the State have to claim sovereignty over it?

- A repressive arm of the state.
When parents are forced to medicate or vaccinate their children, under threat of having them removed or not being able to attend schools. What else do you call it?

- Modern medicine is the secularisation of religion's hold on human kind.
The battle between Science and religion is nothing new. I've never had an orthodox Doctor ask about religious beliefs.

- Using drugs is a victimless crime.
If I take a drug, who else am I hurting?
http://pc.blogspot.com/2005/08/drug-use ... crime.html

- Their 'Alternative' advice for mental disorders is medical treatment and a healthy diet.
I believe this is related to studies which shows the effect of over and under-active thyroid on physical and mental health, which are misdiagnosed as mental illness. Studies have also shown synthetic food colourings can adversely affect the behaviour of children and Aspartame is linked to many problems.

Psychiatrist Ralph Walton, M.D.., Professor and Chairman, Department of Psychiatry, Northeastern Ohio Universities College of Medicine, in one statement said: "We have known for years that when aspartame is ingested with a carbohydrate rich meal the usual physiologic increase in tryptophan is blocked, while brain phenylalanine and tyrosine concentrations are increased. These changes in amino acid neurotransmitter precursors could, I believe, alter indoleamine/catecholamine balance, and thus have a profound effect on mood and cognition ... depressed mood, anxiety, dizziness, panic attacks, nausea, irritability, impairment of memory and concentration."

http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/ ... artame.htm

I'm done with this topic now. I think this sentence summarizes the issues from the 'No' camp.

Trying to treat the metaphysical with drugs and calling it science is a sham. I am not claiming to have the answers or insight to unexplainable behaviors. However, the field of psychiatry certainly does not have the answers. What they have is the authority of government and an uncritical population willing to submit to their doctrines.

[niggle]

Well I have just watched a selection of the videos that Mr Plum cited.
Biased ?? I'll say so. And he organisation producing and selling the videos is making a fair old whack out of it all I'll bet. Yet anoher in the growth industry of Human Rights - everyone is a victim - its not my fault its other people that have done this to me
They seem to be saying that all drugs used in mental health are killers. What rubbish
How many people die from the most widely available lethally toxic drug on the market - paracetamol?
All drugs have side effects and all drugs can kill often inadvertenly. My own son died last year from a toxic build up of prescribed drugs - without which he may have died much earlier. I don't attach blame or blast the doctors who acted in good faith nor do I blast them all with the label of quacks and agents of some sinister organisation.
Sure all drugs are tested on animals and people
If you go to the doctor and he gives you achoice;
1. This drus will cure you, ok there are some side effects but it works.
2. This drug hasnt been tested on humans but it worked on ani,als so it should be ok (fingers crossed)
3. This drug hasnt been tested on humans or animals, so hopefully it will work but who knows (please sign a discalimer that you won't sue me)
Which option are you going to go for ?
What would Mr Plum rather do with someone suffering from a profound mental illness?, leave them alone, give them some yoga excersises, or actively treat them, after which other methods may be explored.
Or the guy who comes into hospital with such a profound depression that he is going to die soon if treatment (yes, I include ECT in this scenario) having not eaten for weeks and severley neglected?
These cases are not a socially induced illness nor are they something that can be helped by looking for "oxygen bubbles" in the skin.
Many have pysical causes and imablances
We got neurology and we got biology - there ain't no room for psychology

[LAnative]

K1975- You mentioned the local construction workers who look for work. I'm curious as to where they got the transportation money to do that. I made a suggestion on another thread to reduce the number of burglaries everyone could pony up a few bucks to rent a bus and take home all the unemployed construction workers that wanted to go home but couldn't afford to. I got no response but am I off base there?
A similar situation exists in many American cities with very high unemployment rates like Detroit where many are trapped by circumstance. Many have left but the unemployed that remain can't afford to look elsewhere for work. They are the ones who breed the crime, sell the drugs and help fill the prisons, not only on sales but for possession as well. Sure there are the lazy drug lords running the 'hood. And drugs DO mess with your mental health. But prisons are "crime schools" and very few states pay for drug counselling and even if they do the sucess rate of the programs is quite low and temporary. My facts I'll admit come from the media like "60 Minutes" and Bill Moyer's Journal on public TV. I haven't independently verified their data but that over 50 percent inmates in for drug offenses has been consistent for many years.
But ultimately I don't hope to change ANYONE'S mind about ANYTHING. I just like the exchange of facts and information. I can pretty well judge the veracity of the argument and gain a sense of the persons motives for their argument by the language they use. I find it all interesting and a HELL of a lot better than TV .


DQ

[Super Joe]

You could list 100 Psychiatric Organizations. I doubt if any will agree that what they practice is a 'myth'.

Do you agree with them that mental illness is just a "myth" then ?

You just flagged the connection to Scientology so you could dismiss them with a smear.

'Smear' would not be a rellevant comment if they were not a dangerous religion IMO, your opinion may differ about them. Their stance on healthcare is published for all to see and make up their own minds.

Narcotic addiction is not a mental disease.

Selective quoting there Mr P, strange you left of the rellevant and controversial part where they say "narcotic addiction is not to be cured through legal drugs and argue in favor of a narcotics free-market." So they oppose psychiatric drugs but have no objection to narcotics. Hypocrisy reigns.

Death control - Quite agree. It's my body. My life. What right does the State have to claim sovereignty over it?

You appear to agree with them that people, whether of sane mind or not, cos hey mental illness is just a "myth" right, can refuse treatment and just be allowed to die unwittingly. I believe this is illegal in the country this organisation are based in.

A repressive arm of the state.
When parents are forced to medicate or vaccinate their children, under threat of having them removed or not being able to attend schools. What else do you call it?

'Threat of kids not being able to attend schools' .... Hey!?!? Again selective quoting and avoiding giving a rellevant answer to my quote of their beliefs about the state using it to imprison people. Was nothing to do with little Johnny missing class on a Tuesday. And YOU accuse others of not addressing the issues, pot, kettle.

Using drugs is a victimless crime. If I take a drug, who else am I hurting?

You? maybe no-one, assuming we put to one side the proceeds are often, back at point of origin, funding terror, murder, forced child labour, corruption, destruction of rainforests, kidnappings, thousand of deaths each year from crop protection landmines etc. The drug origins apart, in general I believe the reality is that narcotics use leads to crime and victims. Please tell me you're just kidding on this one.

Their 'Alternative' advice for mental disorders is medical treatment and a healthy diet.

They dismiss mental illness as a "myth" and their ground-breaking 'alternative advice' (their words) is to seek 'medical treatment' and maintain a 'healthy diet'. Boy have they got solutions, or have they got solutions. Wonder if the 'medical advice' ever results in the prescribing of drugs or being referred to a psychiatrist who may prescribe ..... errr drugs. Healthy diet I agree with, was taught that at Junior school.
.

.
Is it me or are they simply denouncing psychiatry and claiming mental illness is just a "myth", then failing to provide alternative solutions, then passing the buck back to doctors and/or drug dealers Agree Mr P, I'm done with this cack too.

SJ

[Khundon1975]

LAnative wrote.

K1975- You mentioned the local construction workers who look for work. I'm curious as to where they got the transportation money to do that. I made a suggestion on another thread to reduce the number of burglaries everyone could pony up a few bucks to rent a bus and take home all the unemployed construction workers that wanted to go home but couldn't afford to. I got no response but am I off base there?

Sorry LAnative but you are just being silly now. They come here by the lorry/coach load to find work from all over Thailand, Burma, Laos. They do this to earn money to support themselves and their families.
You have lorries and coaches in the US don't you?
They speculate to accumulate, you understand that concept don't you?

A similar situation exists in many American cities with very high unemployment rates like Detroit where many are trapped by circumstance. Many have left but the unemployed that remain can't afford to look elsewhere for work. They are the ones who breed the crime, sell the drugs and help fill the prisons, not only on sales but for possession as well. Sure there are the lazy drug lords running the 'hood. And drugs DO mess with your mental health. But prisons are "crime schools" and very few states pay for drug counselling and even if they do the sucess rate of the programs is quite low and temporary. My facts I'll admit come from the media like "60 Minutes" and Bill Moyer's Journal on public TV. I haven't independently verified their data but that over 50 percent inmates in for drug offenses has been consistent for many years.
But ultimately I don't hope to change ANYONE'S mind about ANYTHING. I just like the exchange of facts and information. I can pretty well judge the veracity of the argument and gain a sense of the persons motives for their argument by the language they use.

What are my motives, please tell me, as you seem to have convinced yourself that you can read my mind.
I think you are overestimating your powers.
American TV, the font of all knowledge. I don't think so.

I find it all interesting and a HELL of a lot better than TV.

Prison is the place for criminals, end of argument. When you have verified the facts and you discover you are wrong, let me know.

[LAnative]

Yes Sir K1975! Argument over Sir!!
The idea about the bus rides was only that a SUGGESTION and I admitted I don't know the logistics of the situation, It was only an attempt at a small contribution and I have no problem with it being rejected and putdown. It's not MY problem only trying to help because I too have been burglarized MANY times.
My 'goal" in this discussion is the exchange of info and ideas, a different perspective than ONLY the American media's one. It is not my goal to just win arguments. Even if I did win one that doesn't make me (or you) a more superior person by virtue of the fact. All it means is you have YOUR point of view from YOUR experience and I have mine I'm just trying to be more open minded by getting the viewpoint of others and I wouldn't presume to end the argument because it didn't agree with me.
That's a bit authoritarian don't you think?
DQ

[MrPlum]

Well I have just watched a selection of the videos that Mr Plum cited.
Biased ?? I'll say so. And he organisation producing and selling the videos is making a fair old whack out of it all I'll bet. Yet anoher in the growth industry of Human Rights - everyone is a victim - its not my fault its other people that have done this to me
They seem to be saying that all drugs used in mental health are killers. What rubbish
How many people die from the most widely available lethally toxic drug on the market - paracetamol?
All drugs have side effects and all drugs can kill often inadvertenly. My own son died last year from a toxic build up of prescribed drugs - without which he may have died much earlier. I don't attach blame or blast the doctors who acted in good faith nor do I blast them all with the label of quacks and agents of some sinister organisation.
Sure all drugs are tested on animals and people
If you go to the doctor and he gives you achoice;
1. This drus will cure you, ok there are some side effects but it works.
2. This drug hasnt been tested on humans but it worked on ani,als so it should be ok (fingers crossed)
3. This drug hasnt been tested on humans or animals, so hopefully it will work but who knows (please sign a discalimer that you won't sue me)
Which option are you going to go for ?
What would Mr Plum rather do with someone suffering from a profound mental illness?, leave them alone, give them some yoga excersises, or actively treat them, after which other methods may be explored.
Or the guy who comes into hospital with such a profound depression that he is going to die soon if treatment (yes, I include ECT in this scenario) having not eaten for weeks and severley neglected?
These cases are not a socially induced illness nor are they something that can be helped by looking for "oxygen bubbles" in the skin.
Many have pysical causes and imablances
We got neurology and we got biology - there ain't no room for psychology

Sorry niggle. Missed this one and feel an answer is warranted.

I'm not sure that I have suggested that Yoga can fix some of the more serious cases, nor that Yoga alone can do the job, although for some people, it might. Most people think it's doing a few stretches in a leotard. This is not so. Yoga incorporates proper exercise, therapeutic breathing, relaxation, diet, positive thinking & meditation. Progressive Relaxation stems from Yoga. Guided meditation comes from Yoga. Many breathing exercises originate from Yoga. There is a technique called 'Yoga Nidra' which is worth researching.

Although as rare as hen's teeth, there are board certified Psychiatrists who use these methods. This is a profile of one from Columbia University who, with his wife, are champions of safe alternatives.
http://asp.cumc.columbia.edu/facdb/prof ... Psychiatry
In his book list, one of his publications mentions 'Sudarshan Kriya'. I mentioned this previously being used successfully to treat PTSD. More Yoga.

I said in my opening post 'most people's mental health issues'. 'Most' does not mean 'everyone'.

The more serious problems are definitely NOT myths. Of course actively treat them.

This article on St. John's Wort suggests there ARE safer alternatives to anti-depressants.
http://www.naturalnews.com/026557_depre ... _Wort.html

'In recent years, the popularity of the herbal antidepressant has soared as new concerns continue to emerge over pharmaceutical antidepressants, especially SSRIs. In Germany, doctors regularly prescribe it to children and teenagers. In the United Kingdom, it is currently used by two million people.'

There is also growing interest in the use of adaptogens. You can search to see if it's just a new fad or there is anything to it.

The videos focus on what's happening in the U.S. and are extreme BECAUSE the U.S. is itself extreme. My concerns lie with the greater mass of people who are at risk of abuse and harm from predatory corporations and predatory government, defining new psychological states deemed to be 'deviant'.

Pharmaceutical companies ARE pitching their wares to the public then telling the viewers to ask their Doctor for the brand they are peddling. This is bad news for the simple reason their motivation is profit and they are intent on medicalizing every human experience. Psychiatrists and politicians are supporting this effort. It creates the belief in the viewers mind that common feelings and moods they experience are a 'mental illness' when they are just the normal trials of life. Are we to see romantic love twisted into a 'disease' that needs 'treatment'. Perhaps '9-11 truthers' are to be chemically 'coshed'?

When you don't really understand the mind any theory can be presented as 'truth'. Practitioners are human too. Why wouldn't they believe what they are taught, as long as it's plausible? Overwhelm any doubts with Psychiatric Journals, periodicals, movies etc.. and pretty soon they stop questioning. Especially if threatened with sanction. Isn't that precisely what's happening with the Global Warming nonsense?

All these fad conditions are NEW. That in itself tells me they are suspect.

[LAnative]

Global warming "nonsense"? Sorry Mr. Plum I can't buy that one, you'll have to elucidate.
My son works for a sustainability company in Oregon. He has a master's degree in the subject so knows a bit about it. What I've read, heard and seen on scientific shows like Nova on PBS don't sound like nonsense to me. There is a right wing contingent in this country that says it is all a hoax. But why would the scientific community who virtually all agree that Global warming is real, all lie about it? What would be their motive other than research grants? And even if it IS a hoax what harm would developing alternatives to fossil fuels be? Alternative energy devices jobs are currently replacing SOME of the lost auto jobs in Michigan.
Aside from this, as practioner of yoga and meditation for 34 years, I agree with much of what you said. Stress is what causes much of the "mental illness" and anxiety and at best phamaceuticals are only a temporary fix with their own side effects. This statement comes from my personal experience, not from some expert. Stop drugs the symptoms return.
IMO pharmaceuticals should be used ONLY in acute emergencies to prevent imminent death. But that isn't profitable enough to pay for advertising, research and lobbying so a wider market is needed. "Ask your doctor" is a common TV ad and many times the USE for the drug is unclear. My doctor would slap me if I came in asking about some drug I saw on TV the way we are told to. With an HMOpaying him he cannot afford the time to talk about it.
Often the side effects are the SAME as the symptoms viz a heartburn drug that has a side effect of 'stomach pain" and my own experience with antidepressant side effects of "weight gain, loss of interest in sex, insomnia or over sleeping" etc. These are precisely the same as the SYMPTOMS of depression! Huh?

NOT an expert or in the medical field, just talking from personal experience.
DQ

[richard]

Many years ago I lived in Basingstoke.

Basingstoke went from being a quiet market town to a full blown overspill from London.

My 7 year old daughter suffered stomach cramps and severe headaches. The hospital could not diagnose or solve the problem but refered her to the part of the hospital that treated mental illness. They put her on a 7 day diet of water only and no medication. After 7 days her normal diet was gradually reintroduced until the problem reoccured. She was allergic to milk.

After talking to the Doctor about the treatment he told me many people particularly those that have been uprooted from their normal environment suffer stress but this can usually be down to diet.

Cant remember his name but he wrote a book about allergies and it certainly worked for my daughter