Another crackdown on border runners

[lomuamart]

There is nothing wrong with a visa runner. Most of them are not 50, not married to a Thai and aren't working.
Meanwhile, some "big" people seem to put them down all the time.
Where there is seed, grass grows.
You're doing yourself a dis-service.

[Super Joe]

I assume that wasn't aimed at me Lomu as I haven't said anything derogatory towards them and actually said the opposite that I would be doing the same thing as them if that was my best option to stay long term.

SJ

[Super Joe]

I just love those rose tinted ones that a minority (and a very small one) are wearing on this forum. Nice comparison SJ, Cambodia

Well we did do the Philippines and Malaysia first, then someone brought up Cambodia as an easier alternative to Thailand. Agree with you, cr@p country, bad comparison. We'd looked at the more desirable neighbours, Philippines and Malaysia, and their programs which are clearly aimed at the wealthy, ironically a charge levelled at Thailand.

Thailand does seem to offer the best and most varied options for foreigners wanting long stays in the region, we're all still here after all, people never seem to move on in any great numbers. Best of a bad bunch maybe, but think it's a bit naeive of any of us who decided to move to a fiercely nationalistic country to expect much to change, especially when we are using all possible loopholes. I accept it and try and work with it, others seem to let it frustrate them.

The rose-tinted glasses thing works both way, until some of us accept that foreigners are abusing loopholes etc, myself included, and that we are part of the reason for some of the regulation changes, then we're just burying our heads in the sand.

They offer Permanent Residency for 100k, if married to a Thai spouse, it certainly doesn't give us all we want but it removes the main thing some people have problems with, ie: visas and extensions. Some rubbish it like yourself, others have used it to their advantage, others do not bother with it. Everyone's different and make their own choices.

SJ

[lomuamart]

SJ,
I don't think that you and I will ever see eye-to-eye on these Imm matters. I just don't see that visa runners are using any loopholes. They are abiding by the exact terms of whatever regulations are in force at the time. If Thailand wanted people like these out, they would be - regulation wise - already.
However, they are allowed to make four consecutive 15 day border runs and then fly out of the country and get a 30 day visa exempt stamp on arrival. The process begins again. Yes, it's hard work and inconvenient and I'm sure that Thailand would prefer that they got a Tourist visa.
My gut feel is that Thailand wants these people but isn't sure how to weed out the bad eggs without upsetting the whole container.
I had to do countless runs to Ranong for years because I wasn't 50 and wasn't married to a Thai at the time. I've been through a number of passports because of that. However, no big deal. Everyone knew me by name down there and whilst the traveling was a pain, I complied. There will always be some who reckon I was taking advantage of a loophole. I never saw it that way. I was following the letter of the law.
Loopholes are there for overstayers (and others) - and I mean years overstay. They turn up at the airport, pay 20K, fly out and return a few days later. If I costed my border run at 1,500 THB each month (including a few beers) it it would be cheaper to overstay over a long period of time. That's a loophole, IMO and I am purposefully not going to cast any moral judgement on it.
PR? I don't really know much about this as I've only met one foreigner who has it in HH. (There will be more). However, my understanding is that Thailand only gives 100 people of any given nationality this status every year. And you have to have worked and paid taxes for 3 years (fair enough), invested some money in a government that sometimes seems hell bent on making life difficult for you etc etc etc. For all this I would be the proud possessor of a colourful passport type document that means that I don't have to report to Imm every 90 days. Big deal. My retirement extension gives me the "security" I need and to bowl up every 3 months and fill a simple form in isn't a big issue for me. I also have the flexibility of moving on without potentially losing money.
Citizenship - I'm not going to go there. I think it's impossible.
Sorry for the ramble, but I just don't see that visa runners are using any loophole. In fact the opposite seems to be the case. The frustrating thing is that this country can't seem to decide exactly what they want and regulations get changed every 6 months. It's a royal pain for me trying to keep up with developments and the visa exempt runs don't affect me any more

[Super Joe]

SJ,
I don't think that you and I will ever see eye-to-eye on these Imm matters. I just don't see that visa runners are using any loopholes. They are abiding by the exact terms of whatever regulations are in force at the time. If Thailand wanted people like these out, they would be - regulation wise - already.

Sure we'll agree to disagree, my main thinking behind calling it a loophole is because the revised regulations always state it is applicable "for the purpose of tourism". Not sure if they really want to stop them or not, maybe their problem is putting a total block on it affects expat worker tourists that come in from China, HK, Singapore and Mid-East oil platforms during their holiday periods!?
Any reg. changes coming out of it does not affect me so I never run them down, just post that they are at least partly to blame for these reg. changes, so we 'collective' Farangs have no real right to criticise the government, just my opinion.

PR? I don't really know much about this as I've only met one foreigner who has it in HH. (There will be more). However, my understanding is that Thailand only gives 100 people of any given nationality this status every year. And you have to have worked and paid taxes for 3 years (fair enough), invested some money in a government that sometimes seems hell bent on making life difficult for you etc etc etc. For all this I would be the proud possessor of a colourful passport type document that means that I don't have to report to Imm every 90 days. Big deal. My retirement extension gives me the "security" I need and to bowl up every 3 months and fill a simple form in isn't a big issue for me.

I too probably won't get it as no real need for it, but it's there to assist people who will have difficulty with their extensions, ie:
a) Retiree's needing to use their 800k show money if no pension for a crisis.
b) 'Support of Family' farangs if their 40k/month income stops and they have no pension (like I haven't).
c) 'Support of Family' farangs who were extending on the 400k show money as no overseas income, who need to break into that 400k for an emergency.
No more proof of income or show money required again, the 800k in the bank can be spent the next day. A farang whose 40k/month income dried up would not be affected, he can still stay here with wife and kids.
They do increase the 100 people quota if there's demand. There's other benefits like you can obtain loans from banks for property, cars or the like. It costs about 100k if married to a Thai spouse and will end up saving you money if you live a few years. If someone needs 800k for a heart-op when they're 70 or whatever, it'll come in handy then.

SJ

[margaretcarnes]

A few pages back JaJa commented that he doesn't know any other country which doesn't require foreigners to keep doing visa runs.
How about the UK then JaJa? True - our many immigrants have to apply for residency - but where else could immigrants (from Eastern European countries) be treated to immediate housing, immediate State Benefits, 1,000 stirling to buy a car....
OK the EU does have reciprocal benefit agreements, as we have discussed on other threads. But these cash handouts are a fact, as is the right to housing. And that's before they have even found work.
I do sympathise with Buksis situation, and know that it is genuine. But can also see the potential argument from older expats, who have worked for years back home and 'paid their dues' before moving to LOS, often ensuring secure UK or wherever pensions in the process.
The whole thing really centres around restrictions on farangs working in LOS. I don't blame them for trying to crack down on the visa runners, despite the fact I did it myself for quite a while. I wouldn't for example ever expect to be able to stay in countries such as Australia or the States without a great deal more red tape than used to apply in LOS.
But until LOS adopts a much more liberal attitude towards foreign workers I think they will continue with these firefighting measures - for want of knowing any other way to handle it.
Question is - what are the chances of that more liberal attitude? Diddly squat IMO. Especially if LOS looks to what is happening in the UK.

[hhfarang]

That's right Mags. Loose immigration laws have ruined (diluted or polluted!) the cultures of many countries. I heard a story just yesterday that either The Netherlands or Denmark (I forget which) is in danger of becoming a European Islamic country because the population is now very close to an immigrated Muslim majority. Many recent elections in the EU have been swinging back towards more conservative candidates lately as people are becoming aware of what is happening to their culture.

[sargeant]

quote mags
But can also see the potential argument from older expats, who have worked for years back home and 'paid their dues' before moving to LOS, often ensuring secure UK or wherever pensions in the process.


And may i add have to suffer the same rule changes and beaurocracy (and thus insecurity)BECAUSE of those that dont do their homework and if they do do due diligence still choose to ignore it and then ruin our Quiet retirement with their whinging about we are rich and wealthy and LOS only wants rich Non working people whilst still choosing to work the oracle or as i call it T/ing the P

[Khundon1975]

Of course it can be used month by month and another 800k transferred each year (at a cost). The money though is tied up for 3 months at no interest to me

Based on your above post regarding you raking it in at 10%, why would losing a few months interest on a relatively small amount (to you), the 800k be of much concern ?

And just the mention of the TT transfer fee of 25 quid, or whatever it is, done it for me.

SJ

SJ

Don't forget, it costs money to transfer the 800k out of Thailand again, after the visa has been granted.

£14,500 in HSBC Regular Saver Acc pays 10% interest (if you pay a salary into account as well). The same amount invested in Asia Pacific Ex Japan fund (First State Greater China Growth Fund) over 3 years would have returned almost 47%.

It is very easy for you to sneer about me, or anyone else being concerned what happens to their money, if that makes you feel good, carry on.

My point is, that I would much rather have our money outside of Thailand earning a good return (which my wife can then invest in Thailand), than
stuck in a Thai bank, earning nothing.

[DaveT]

PR? I don't really know much about this as I've only met one foreigner who has it in HH. (There will be more). However, my understanding is that Thailand only gives 100 people of any given nationality this status every year. And you have to have worked and paid taxes for 3 years (fair enough), invested some money in a government that sometimes seems hell bent on making life difficult for you etc etc etc. For all this I would be the proud possessor of a colourful passport type document that means that I don't have to report to Imm every 90 days. Big deal. My retirement extension gives me the "security" I need and to bowl up every 3 months and fill a simple form in isn't a big issue for me.

I too probably won't get it as no real need for it, but it's there to assist people who will have difficulty with their extensions, ie:
a) Retiree's needing to use their 800k show money if no pension for a crisis.
b) 'Support of Family' farangs if their 40k/month income stops and they have no pension (like I haven't).
c) 'Support of Family' farangs who were extending on the 400k show money as no overseas income, who need to break into that 400k for an emergency.
No more proof of income or show money required again, the 800k in the bank can be spent the next day. A farang whose 40k/month income dried up would not be affected, he can still stay here with wife and kids.
They do increase the 100 people quota if there's demand. There's other benefits like you can obtain loans from banks for property, cars or the like. It costs about 100k if married to a Thai spouse and will end up saving you money if you live a few years. If someone needs 800k for a heart-op when they're 70 or whatever, it'll come in handy then.

SJ[/quote]

Hi SJ,

Just a quick question about PR, as I hadn't heard about that before. I probably know the answer, but will ask anyway. If you buy PR for 100k does that then allow you to own land in your own name?

Cheers,

Dave

[Khundon1975]

Stick with 0.5% from your bank and enjoy your life.

With respect KD, that is what the majority have to do. Although I recently got a wee bit more than that. Dabbling in stocks or property, either in the UK or europe, is not the lot of the average guy in the street! But good luck to you for being in a position to do so.

caller

Thanks caller, I understand that things are very difficult for many ex pats in Thailand at present and I respect those that are struggling to meet the financial requirements of their visas.

I had a retirement visa and did everything legally to obtain it, but understand that many, for whatever reason, use other routes to obtain their visa.

We cannot blame the Thai authorities for trying to stop that sort of thing, the same would apply in any other country.

I just feel that Thailand could make it a bit easier for us to make best use of our money abroad, (rather than tying it up in a Thai bank) so that we could then invest that money in Thailand.
After all, much of the money ex pats bring into the country goes into the Thai economy (housing, consumables, utilities etc) and helps to create employment etc.

[caller]

How about the UK then JaJa? True - our many immigrants have to apply for residency - but where else could immigrants (from Eastern European countries) be treated to immediate housing, immediate State Benefits, 1,000 stirling to buy a car....

Mags, the above certainly caught my attention. I'm not sure that any of the above is correct? I could be wrong on benefits, but housing and a 1000 for a car????

Hope I'm right!

[norm]

It is not really necessary to have 800,000 baht in the bank if you can show you a pension/income of 65,000 baht per month to live on.

The letter from the embassy showing we have 65,000 baht per month coming in, is very acceptable by immigration. That is what we use and it works very well.

[Super Joe]

SJ, It is very easy for you to sneer about me, or anyone else being concerned what happens to their money

KD75, I wasn't sneering at you regarding the transfer costs at all, the opposite infact. You had been sneering at other posters in our 'little worlds' as we do not find it easy to achieve such high investment returns as you. I was making the ironic point that why should you worry about the 25 pound TT costs in your world, it's only in our little world's that it become relevant.

"You live in your little World mate, I have been achieving those sort of returns for years on stocks & shares and much higher returns on property in UK & Europe."

"I am not really concerned if you can't. Stick with 0.5% from your bank and enjoy your life."

"I can earn over 10% interest by investing in stocks/shares property etc in UK /Europe at the moment. It's not rocket science."

"I'm not anxious about putting 800K in a Thai bank, we have several times that there already ,,,, so that my wife can continue to purchase land and property there, whilst she is in UK"

SJ

[buksida]

£14,500 in HSBC Regular Saver Acc pays 10% interest (if you pay a salary into account as well).

I must be with the wrong HSBC then, where do you get 10% in a savings account? Here's what they're offering me:




I reckon you missed two decimal points out there.

Just a quick question about PR, as I hadn't heard about that before. I probably know the answer, but will ask anyway. If you buy PR for 100k does that then allow you to own land in your own name?

No.

You still have to report with PR (albeit annually and not 90 days), you still have to fart around with re-entry stamps, you still can't work, you get no additional 'rights', and you'll still get overcharged for everything because you're still an 'alien'. It costs (including application) the same as 54 years of annual visa extensions (at the current rate of 1,900) - double it if you're not married. I liken it to the 'Elite Card', if it were that good a deal more people would have it and less would be griping about visas!