Visa rules hurt married people

Post by **bapak** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:11 pm

The following letter appeared in the Bangkok Post toda, and in my humble opinion, should be discussed by Farang and the Thai public alike..

POST BAG
* Published: 8/10/2009 at 12:00 AM
* Newspaper section: News

Shouldn't a married couple be allowed to live together?

I have been married to my wife (a Thai national) for over two years. We decided to settle in Thailand rather than in my home country. We are not rich but live happily. Our main problem is that each year visa regulations are modified, making it extremely difficult for us to actually live together.

Last year, I met the visa conditions and was granted a one-year extension of stay, being (technically at least) supported by my wife. By the way, isn't marriage supposed to be about supporting and caring for each other rather than one person ''supporting'' the other?

This year there's been a new change in the regulations and it appears that I do not meet the requirements. I will have to leave the country every 3 months in order to obtain a non-immigrant visa to ''visit'' my wife.

Shouldn't couples legally married by Thai authorities, as we were, be granted the right to live together as husband and wife?

If they were afraid for my wife's welfare, I would be more than happy to show my bank statement and transfer money from overseas to a Thai bank account. But I was informed that I need to work in Thailand. And if I do find a job in Thailand, I might later be accused by a Thai politician of stealing jobs from the Thai people.

I would also like to know the criteria used to define ''sufficient income''.

In this regard I am particularly interested to learn on what basis foreigners married to Thai persons need to justify a personal income of at least 40,000 baht a month (not even combined with the income of the Thai partner). Is this the minimum income deemed necessary for an acceptable standard of living in Thailand? If such is the case, I would suggest the government review both the salary scale of its employees and its handout policy towards the poor. Handouts should be increased dramatically and cover 90% of the population (gross estimate) living below the apparent poverty line of 40,000 baht a month/person. If such is not the case, then I would like to know:

1. Is it just plain racism or xenophobia? In that case, the government should simply enact a law forbidding Thai citizens to marry foreigners.

2. Is it an encouragement for foreigners married to Thai citizens to ''steal'' employment from the Thai people? In that case, lawmakers may soon be rewarded.

3. Or do lawmakers genuinely imagine that foreigners, being such a strange human species, cannot survive in Thailand with less than 40,000 baht a month (not including the Thai spouse's salary or the sums in bank accounts both from overseas and within Thailand)? In that case, the authorities need a reality check.

I did not choose to live in Thailand to become (or feel) rich. I chose to live in Thailand simply because it is my wife's country and because, for many reasons, it remains a lovely country.

In the meantime, would-be students who ''study'' Thai language for a huge 180 hours a year (less than 30 minutes a day) just need to pay a ''school'' around 25,000 baht/year to get an Education Visa and multiple 3-month extensions of stay without having to leave the country.

And they do not need to show any proof of sufficient resources or income. I read some advertisements stating that they can now do so for 10 years in a row, leaving the country only once a year. I already speak and read Thai, albeit not fluently, but I might probably need to become a ''student'' in the end.

Or we'll just go back to my home country where my wife and I would be allowed to live together as husband and wife.

VISITING HUSBAND

Post by **buksida** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:36 pm

I'm surprised he missed out the fact that foreign men marrying Thai women get treated like shit while foreign women marrying Thai men automatically get the basic human rights that all married couples should be entitled to.

Post by **bapak** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:06 pm

Actually I have raised that issue before. Under the Thai Constitution (the ever changing one), men and women are quoted as being equal. Several years ago the Thai Ombudsman raised this issue with the Supreme Court, and as I understand, it was put in the hard basket. Mainly I think because the government could see the thousands of applications being made.

Post by **JimmyGreaves** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:42 pm

buksida wrote:I'm surprised he missed out the fact that foreign men marrying Thai women get treated like shit while foreign women marrying Thai men automatically get the basic human rights that all married couples should be entitled to.

wow, I never new that. Are you saying that foreign women married to a thai man can just stay here with no restrictions?

Post by **buksida** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:51 pm

JimmyGreaves wrote: wow, I never new that. Are you saying that foreign women married to a thai man can just stay here with no restrictions?

Yep, I know two farang women married to Thais, they both have citizenship and Thai ID cards.

sargeant · Post by **sargeant** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:57 pm

I can understand them not wanting marriages of convenience but jeez i am in my 27th year of marriage to a Thai and all i ask is that i report once a year 90 day reporting is such a waste of time and energy.
I think a qualification period of say 3 or even 5 years max should prove it isnt a marriage of convenience

Post by **bapak** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:24 pm

buksida wrote:
JimmyGreaves wrote: wow, I never new that. Are you saying that foreign women married to a thai man can just stay here with no restrictions?
Yep, I know two farang women married to Thais, they both have citizenship and Thai ID cards.

“The Constitution Court has asked the government to consider if foreign men should have the right to Thai citizenship if they marry Thai women.

Noppadol Hengcharoen, secretary-general of the Office of the Constitution Court, said the court asked the Foreign Ministry and the National Security Council to consider the matter in light of the fact that foreign women are granted citizenship under the same circumstances.

The Ombudsman asked the court to decide if Article 9 of the 1965 Nationality Act contradicts Article 30 of the Constitution. Article 9 of the Nationality Act allows foreign women to become citizens if they marry Thai men. But it prohibits foreign men from the same privilege. Article 30 of the Constitution guarantees sex equality. No decision on the request has yet been reported. ”

Thursday, September 25, 2003 Report in The Nation, June 18, 2003.
-----------------
In response to the challenge from the Obudsman the Constitutional Court ruled that the government had a right enact and enforcement whatever legislation it deemed necessary in the interests of national security.
The court didn't consider the special procedures for foreign women married to Thai men to apply for nationality under the Nationality Act as discriminatory against Thai women as the status quo vis a vis foreign male applicants was justifiable on national security grounds which presumably take precedence over gender discrimination in the eyes of the Constitutional Court. The court didn't expand on the specific nature of the national security threat involved here.

The Nationality Act of 2008 removed the necessity for foreign males married to Thai women to have five years' residence in the Kingdom or have knowledge of the Thai language. Theoretically this should remove the need for permanent residence and the language test but as far as I know this new clause in the Act has yet to be implemented. Perhaps it awaits new ministerial regulations from the Interior Ministry, as is often the case in Thailand's ponderous civil law system. The current ministerial regulations still require PR documents and language tests for all male applicants, regardless of marital status. If this new provision in the Nationality Act is ever implemented the only difference in requirements for foreign men married to Thais and foreign women married to Thais would be that the men have to have a job in Thailand with an income of not less than B30k per month and show three years' of Thai income tax receipts. Since this would swamp them with applications from foreign men who can't speak Thai, I suspect the Ministry feels the need for a particulalry cautious approach in changing the ministerial regulations which may take some years. Probably the minimum income levels, which have been in force for nearly 10 years, would be raised significantly at the same time. The price differential alone would make it more attractive to apply for citizenship directly rather than PR. Under the current Nationality Act I think the application fee can only be raised to B10k. It is currently B5k plus B500 for the Certificate of Naturalization, if you are successful.

Post by **lomuamart** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:04 pm

A couple of things.
I can't understand why the letter writer stated that he had to work here to get the 40K a month. There is no need for that. The income can be from overseas as long as it's verified by the applicant's Embassy.
I thought that the move a few years ago to "family income" was a realistic and proper one. However, there are always those here who will bend the rules to suit themselves, so married couples were getting their Thai wives to declare a monthly income of 40K and paying tax on it. The proof of the wife's income came from tax receipts. In reality, the wife had no job or business, but the foreign husband got his extension based on family income anyway.
Imm caught on to this loophole and reverted to the dark ages where all the income had to be from the foreign husband. Surely it would have been easier and fairer for Imm to insist on further evidence of the Thai wife's supposed income?
Remember, it wasn't all that long ago when the offspring of a mixed marriage couldn't get Thai citizenship if the father was foreign. If the wife was foreign, then no problem.
Also, a while ago, a Thai wife was allowed to retain any land in her name before marrying a foreigner, but could not do so afterwards. Go figure.
One day, maybe, this country just might be dragged, kicking and screaming, out of the dark ages. For now, foreign husbands have just got to live with the reverse sexism.

Post by **JimmyGreaves** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:42 pm

lomuamart wrote:A couple of things.
I can't understand why the letter writer stated that he had to work here to get the 40K a month.

Maybe because he has not got 40K a month coming from anywhere else.

Super Joe · Post by **Super Joe** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:10 pm

The letter writer states 'he would be more than happy to transfer money over into a Thai bank'. So why doesn't he just do that and meet the new requirement!?
Why cry about the new rules like a baby threathening to leave the country (never heard that one before

)

Apart from him getting the facts wrong about his visa extension requirement he sounds like a bit of a girl.

Either deal with the reality of the latest rules or leave, either way the authorities couldn't care less, fortunately

SJ

sargeant · Post by **sargeant** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:24 pm

Whilst i agree with almost all that has been posted there is a question to be asked

What did he not understand about the visa requirements BEFORE he got married

I think he may have fallen foul of the credit crunch cant blame him for that

But if he has no income from abroad at all i am sorry but i mai khoa jai
because as far as i know (and i am on a marriage visa) he isnt allowed to work
Quote "isn't marriage supposed to be about supporting and caring for each other rather than one person ''supporting'' the other? "

I just tried that on mrs sarge where is the blank look emoticon lev????

Post by **bapak** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:39 pm

You can get a Work Permit if your Extension to Stay is based on marriage. That is official.

Post by **dtaai-maai** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:55 pm

JimmyGreaves wrote:
lomuamart wrote:A couple of things.
I can't understand why the letter writer stated that he had to work here to get the 40K a month.
Maybe because he has not got 40K a month coming from anywhere else.

No, Jimmy, the writer appeared to say that he could show he met the income requirements, but that he had been told that the only way the 40k could qualify was if it came from employment in Thailand.

If they were afraid for my wife's welfare, I would be more than happy to show my bank statement and transfer money from overseas to a Thai bank account. But I was informed that I need to work in Thailand.

I'm not sure where he's getting his info...

Post by **Takiap** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:57 pm

sargeant wrote:I can understand them not wanting marriages of convenience but jeez i am in my 27th year of marriage to a Thai and all i ask is that i report once a year 90 day reporting is such a waste of time and energy.
I think a qualification period of say 3 or even 5 years max should prove it isnt a marriage of convenience

I agree 100% - 10 years of marriage and I still have to jump through all the hoops - bullshit!

sargeant · Post by **sargeant** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:56 am

Bapak let me clarify that because as far as i know there is a book with work farangs CANNOT DO and half a sheet with jobs they can do
As far as i know that still applies to marriage visas and to work you MUST have a work permit

That also applies to any other visa so it is not something a marriage visa gives and the others dont
A work permit is a seperate entity as far as my knowledge goes