Take a deep breath, smile, pay up, walk away and stay alive

[Jaime]

I've been away from the forum for a few months for one reason or another - mainly that I can't afford a trip to Thailand anytime soon - but popped back today to catch up on the goings on in 'Paradise City'.

I am truly shocked by the thread on Paul Ayling and wish him and his family the very best for his recovery and their pursuit of justice.

I didn't want to hijack that thread but just felt compelled to post a reminder, stating something that should be obvious to many of us by now but that is also easy enough for all of us to forget when we feel we are being cheated.

The fact is that it simply isn't worth arguing with builders, decorators or other Thai 'tradesmen' because they are only too prepared to resort to extreme measures to get what they would regard as satisfaction. I consider myself as someone who can take care of himself physically and not likely to suffer fools but over the years I have been taken to one side by my Thai wife and reminded not to escalate a number of 'discussions' with builders and the like because - as she plainly told me - these people can come back and kill you. They will not confront you in the style to which we are accustomed but will wait in the shadows in numbers or pay a pittance to some teen punk or friendly 'security guard' to have you rubbed out. Thankfully I have had someone like her to guide me and now I know better and, sadly, I do feel that foreigners without the benefit of such family guidance from a Thai are more vulnerable to the dark side of the 'Land of Smiles.'

So, to anyone currently feeling cheated, stressed, humiliated, ripped off or whatever due to their dealings with Thai tradesmen, businessmen or neighbours, my advice is simple....

.... take a deep breath, smile, pay up, walk away and stay alive.

If you cannot live by this maxim, then you really should consider whether Thailand is the right place for you.

[advocate]

I have never felt physically intimidated by a Thai man as they are typically much smaller, and I am also very capable of physically taking care of myself even with the larger ones. Unless of course he is the local boxing champ. But I would never resort to physical violence. I wouldn't in my home country and so why would I do it here.

I too have been warned by my Thai wife of their propensity for underhanded violence and so let her handle disagreements. I try and stay on the sidelines and keep it as a Thai to Thai matter. She is able to negotiate a compromise much better than I am.

Beware of paying too much in advance or paying too large of an installment part way through a job. They will often just dissapear if they are ahead as there is no incentive for them to start/finish the work.

If I am not happy with the work, the wife will try to get them to finish/repair the job and then pay them in full. That's all you can do, and they will usually comply if they want the $.

Making them lose face by raising your voice, swearing and insulting them could be the last mistake you ever make.

[hhfarang]

What a wonderful country we live in, where behind the smiles are thoughts of murder if face is lost or a few hundred baht is owed and not paid...

[advocate]

When hiring a general contractor, verify with all suppliers and subtrades that they have been paid before paying any installments. Many contractors pocket the money and run.

The suppliers and subs will expect you to pay as you have received the goods. This can be a huge problem if you refuse to pay, saying you already have. They fail to see the logic, or just don't care.

[Big Boy]

Some good advice here, and although most of us know it is so in the back of our minds, it's very easy to forget in the heat of the moment. I hope this thread continues to develop, especially with advice on dealing with that initial moment when we might lose our temper in our own country - I know that I might need it

[buksida]

Speaking and understanding Thai goes a long way - a lot is lost in translation - if both parties know what to expect, and agree on it before the work/services are completed then the likelihood of a bad outcome is lessened. It also negates the face factor as you can discuss it in the same language rather than getting angry and frustrated.

This doesn't apply to scam artists though who will rip you off anyway - good research and recommendation is the way to avoid that one.

[Nereus]

And what about the Falang owned and run business that tries the same scams? A lot of this goes on because they think they CAN get away with it. While I agree that it is not worth risking your life and limb, accepting a blatant rip off only encourages it to happen again.

[advocate]

At least with the falang scammers you know where you stand, they will make their intentions known. The Thai is more likely to just walk away and get you when you least expect it.

[richard]

Farangs are the worst. Your guard is down from the start 'cos we are farangs and sort of brothers in arms'

I know a guy who was drugged and robbed and all indications were pointed at a Thai girl who he had picked up. Revealed now that a pair of farangs had colluded with a Thai girl to do the business for a fee

Trust no one

[STEVE G]

As far as construction and related issues, the best way of avoiding this kind of thing is to do a lot of research on who you use before you start and get as many personal referances as possible.
Don't forget that there are reputable local Thai building companies, who largely rely on word of mouth for work and don't behave like the cowboys that you sometimes hear about as they have a reputation to protect.
Also as mentioned above, the best way of sorting out disputes, if possible, is by having a Thai negotiate a solution instead of going into "mad farang" ranting and raving mode. We've had two houses built in Thailand now without any great problems at all and any genuine complaint has been resolved amicably.

[Jaime]

Thanks for all your replies to this one.

My response to a couple of comments:

I have never felt physically intimidated by a Thai man as they are typically much smaller, and I am also very capable of physically taking care of myself even with the larger ones. Unless of course he is the local boxing champ. But I would never resort to physical violence. I wouldn't in my home country and so why would I do it here.

Just to clarify if my OP gave the wrong impression. When I mentioned being restrained from 'escalating' disagreements by my wife, I meant verbally, certainly not physically. I just think that when you are confident physically, you are more likely to raise your voice, swear, refuse to pay etc. All of which, as you rightly pointed out in later replies, are good ways to end up in a local hospital or worse.

And what about the Falang owned and run business that tries the same scams? A lot of this goes on because they think they CAN get away with it. While I agree that it is not worth risking your life and limb, accepting a blatant rip off only encourages it to happen again.

I think the issue of Farang v Farang disputes is for a different thread. The cultural differences and communication problems that trigger unexpectedly violent outcomes are not present. This thread is really about being able to know how to react when frustrated by or in dispute with a section of Thai society that is, for the most part, uneducated and acting upon a completely different system of logic (and sense of justice) to the one we are used to.

[Nereus]

I think the issue of Farang v Farang disputes is for a different thread. The cultural differences and communication problems that trigger unexpectedly violent outcomes are not present. This thread is really about being able to know how to react when frustrated by or in dispute with a section of Thai society that is, for the most part, uneducated and acting upon a completely different system of logic (and sense of justice) to the one we are used to.

I know what your point is, but it is connected. How many times do we see the result of a Farang dispute carried out by Thais? Yes, in some cases it may be "hired thugs" that carry out some retribution that are just paid to do it. But how do you know that the Thais doing it are not "hired", but are people that have not been paid their due payment by the Farang and fed a load of lies to get them riled up?

I have yet to read about any Farang actually going himself and assaulting somebody involved in a dispute. In addtion, any unsatisfactory work that leads to a dispute will have been carried out by a Thai in the first place. It seems to me that there are Falang contractors that will use the very points that you have quoted for their own benefit, knowing that the Thais will be blamed for it regardless.

[Jaime]

Well, I have to disagree. I think you're more likely to get some straightforward intimidation along the lines of: "You better f#@%ing pay up OR ELSE..." from a criminally minded farang. The fact that he might employ a Thai to carry out the act is irrelevant.

As Advocate posted above, the Thai is more likely to just walk away and get you when you least expect it.

The other major difference is the sums of money generally involved. Farangs owning construction firms or other businesses catering to other farangs are generally not doing very small jobs or going to get you bumped off for the sake of a couple of hundred quid..... but with Thais... different story.

Your life is worth more than that, whether you think you are being ripped off or not.

Pride comes before a fall and the choice is yours. That is the point of this thread.

[sandman67]

tonights homework assignment:

"all it takes for evil to thrive is for good men to say and do nothing....."

Discuss.

[Frank Hovis]

Sandman has it spot on.

Taking the OPs original post to infer "If you make a Thai lose face they will inevitably get their revenge on you" and then applying it more broadly to the whole of Thailand, there would be nobody left! Most business here is Thai to Thai, in the case of a contractor doing poor work and there being a dispute, which one of them should fear a delayed attack? The contractor? The customer? Both?
No, they sort it out between each other, probably in the most face-saving way possible. There's no need to just rollover and accept any old rubbish but ranting at someone in a foreign language will get you zero respect, in any country.

I think the difference is that Thai's can resolve disputes with themselves much easier than they can with foreigners. That has to be true of almost every country in the world, it's easier to discuss matters when both parties speak the same language, use the same body language and understand the subtle signs that allow people to say much more than they are actually saying.

I think the suggested "maxim for living in Thailand" is utter nonsense and doesn't describe what most of us experience on a day to day basis.