Thai officials believe 12 boys missing in cave are alive

[RCer]

3 top cave divers from the UK arrived overnight. Apparently, they went straight in (day or night, I don't suppose it makes much difference in those conditions).

Divers.jpg

Great news.

[Nereus]

Cave search suspended as flood water rises after more rain

https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/genera ... -more-rain

CHIANG RAI: Persistent rain overnight raised water levels inside Tham Luang cave in Mae Sai district and rescuers were forced to pause their search for 12 boys and their football coach.

Authorities said the 10-kilometre-long cave in the Tham Luang Khun Nam Nang Non Forest Park had four chambers and floodwater almost reached the main entrance of the cave early Thursday morning.

Consequently, rescuers had to remove their equipment from the cave and wait for the flood level to subside. Local weathermen expected the rain would stop late Thursday morning.

Outside the cave, 132 police officers were deployed with sniffer dogs trying to find other openings into the cave.

Park officials have closed the forest park to tourists.

Deputy Prime Minister Prawit Wongsuwon said 30 US specialists had arrived at the cave from Hawaii and were considering boring into the cave to hopefully save the missing people.

The boys, aged 11-16, are members of a local football team nicknamed the “Wild Boars”. They and their 26-year-old coach entered the cave after football practice on Saturday. A mother of one of the players raised the alarm when her son did not return home.

Bicycles, shoes and backpacks belonging to the footballers were found near the cave entrance.

[Nereus]

Cave rescuers drill in hunt for team

https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/genera ... /#cxrecs_s

Drilling will get under way today to create new passageways for rescue teams to find the 12 young footballers and their 26-year-old coach who are believed to still be trapped in Tham Luang cave in Chiang Rai's Mai Sai district.

Rescue efforts have been hampered by rising waters triggered by persistent rainfall, Interior Minister Anupong Paojinda said yesterday.
He said search teams were combing the hills above the cave in search of other passages. The Energy Ministry has provided cave drilling machines while the Natural Resources and Environment Ministry has sent in body heat sensor equipment to support the rescue operations.

All the equipment has now been deployed at the entrance to the cave and is ready for the drilling operation today, Gen Anupong said.

Geologists will be asked to give advice on where to drill, he said.

The sensor equipment will be used to search shafts beneath the hill leading down into the cave. Drilling machines will then be used to bore through the hill's rock surface.

"We need an opening large enough for a man to go down. Authorities will do all they can to save the children and their coach," Gen Anupong said.

Gen Anupong said hopes were high that the children were still safe as they were fit and strong and were familiar with the area and know the cave well.

Anukoon Sorn-ek, a professional cave explorer, said the cave drilling method to be employed today can speed up the rescue mission.

"It will save a lot of time as the use of Seal divers will be too slow because the water's currents in the cave are strong, murky and even muddy," he said.

"In terms of the rescue operation, you need to combine all measures," said Mr Anukoon, who helped explore the cave in 1992, before it was declared a tourism site. Mr Anukoon has surveyed the cave three times.

"Cave explorers always keep walking inside to get away from rising waters. Since they have not been seen, that probably means they have kept walking," he said.

In terms of the rescue, Mr Anukoon said the biggest challenge is the rising water levels. "Rescue teams need to drain water from the cave first and foremost before a rapid operation can resume."

Maj Gen Chalongchai Chaiyakham, deputy commander of the 3rd Army, said yesterday three ceiling shafts had been found above the cave.

Rescuers and soldiers were able to abseil down through the first shaft which was as deep as 15 metres and reached a dead-end, he said.

The second shaft was 5-7 metres deep and the third shaft was about 90 metres deep.
Food supplies were dropped into the third shaft, Maj Gen Chalongchai said.

He added that Navy Seals had not yet reached the rock chamber dubbed "Pattaya Beach" in the cave as efforts were under way to pump out water from the cave to give them sufficient headroom to operate.

Supreme Commander Thanchaiyan Srisuwan said the United States Pacific Command was sending a team of navy divers and disaster experts to help with the search. They were en route from Hawaii.

Tourism and Sports Minister Weerasak Kowsurat said three professional cave divers from the UK had reached the northern province of Chiang Rai yesterday to support the rescue operation.

Laos has also sent divers and rescue teams to help find the missing team.

Thai Navy Seals wrote on their Facebook pages that high-pressure water pumps were put in place at the cave early yesterday as rescuers continued their efforts to save the footballers and their coach, but were unable to stem the rising floodwater inside the cave.

About 4.45am, a fresh downpour pounded the area, causing flooding in the third chamber deep inside the cave, forcing rescuers to retreat to the second chamber. Water rose by about 15 centimetres an hour.

Rescue teams were working against the clock to drain the cave but more rainwater kept entering
Army chief Gen Chalermchai Sitthisad had also arrived at the rescue site.

A total of 840 soldiers, a team of 90 members of the Lop Buri-based Special Warfare Command, four helicopters, disaster relief equipment, and excavators have been deployed to help with the search.

Maj Gen Bancha Suriyapan, commander of the 37th Army Circle, said helicopters could not be used to survey the area for the time being, as continuous rain meant poor visibility.

Her Royal Highness Princess Chulabhorn yesterday donated 500,000 baht to support rescue efforts and extended moral support to all involved in the operation and her best wishes for the safety of the youngsters and coach.

Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha said resources from all agencies were being used in the search for the missing.
He hoped there would be good news soon and urged people not to be discouraged. Gen Prayut was speaking before chairing the cabinet meeting.

The football team, nicknamed the "Wild Boars", and their coach entered the cave after football practice on Saturday. A mother of one of the players alerted authorities when her son did not come home.

Bicycles, shoes and backpacks belonging to the footballers were found near the cave's entrance.

[Big Boy]

That's disappointing - Mrs BB (who is glued to the TV watching the news) has told me they thought they were about to make contact about an hour ago. Obviously more wishful thinking than facts.

[Nereus]

They keep reporting that the kids are familiar with the cave. But by now what ever they were using for lights are probably exhausted. It is blacker than the proverbial inside a cave, and unless they went straight to some place that they knew would be above the high water mark, they will get disorientated very easily, and that is when panic sets in.

Does not look good.

[Nereus]

Foreign divers, soldiers join rescue at Tham Luang cave

https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/genera ... recent_box

CHIANG RAI: A team of US military personnel and British divers joined rescue efforts at the flooded cave where 12 children and their football coach have been trapped for five days as heavy overnight rains hampered the search.

Flood waters seeped into a second chamber of Tham Luang cave in Mae Sai district in Chiang Rai forcing some of the rescue divers to turn back, according to officials.

The children, aged between 11 and 16, went into the cave on Saturday and were trapped when heavy rains flooded the main entrance.

Around 1,000 navy "seals" divers, police, soldiers, border guards and officials have been mobilised for the around-the-clock rescue in a mountainous area near the Lao and Myanmar borders.

A team of American military personnel from the US Pacific Command, including pararescue and survival specialists, arrived at the site overnight to help rescue operations, according to an embassy spokeswoman.
"Operators are trained in personnel recovery tactics and techniques and procedures," Jillian Bonnardeaux told AFP.

"Essentially what they're looking at is assessing with the Thai authorities the potential courses of action and complementing the efforts underway," she added.

Three British expert cave divers arrived at the scene late Wednesday and entered the cave in full kit before emerging about an hour later.
"We've got a job to do," diver John Volanthen said as he went into the tunnel, declining to speak further.

Sniffer dogs

Exhausted relatives have been camped out near the main cave entrance for days desperately awaiting news about the missing team and their 25-year-old coach.
"I'm sad. I want (my son) to be safe, we've heard nothing from officials yet," Mr Thinnakorn, the father of a 12-year-old in the cave, told AFP.

Heavy rains overnight caused water levels to rise even as several high-pressure water pumps were installed inside the cave to drain the caverns.
The flooding kept rescuers out of the tunnels as heavy rains fell overnight.

"The divers are now ready to go in as soon as the water drops to a suitable level," Thai NavySEAL said on their Facebook page on Thursday.

Border guards with police dogs scoured the site for new openings into the cave, which is several kilometres long.
Families brought clothing belonging to the kids to help the sniffer dogs find the team.
Search teams found three new entry holes this week, but only one of the chimneys was accessible.

Tham Luang cave is a popular draw for local visitors during the dry season, though a sign at the entrance warns tourists not to enter during the wet season from July to November.

Official said the football team and their coach Ekkapol Janthawong have been in the cave many times before and know the site well.

Photos on Ekkapol's Facebook page showed him with some young footballers in the cave in 2016.

The complex cave is infamous for being a tough site for skilled divers because of its complicated network of tunnels and pools.

[Nereus]

Just to show a bit of perspective, the following is just a rough idea of what is needed to shift large amounts of water.
An irrigation pump that has an open discharge for flood type irrigation, not through sprinklers:

At just 20 psi discharge pressure, which would be the minimum considering friction losses out of an open ended pipe, the 5,000 litres a second (that is 300,000 litres / minute) that has been quoted, with an 80% efficient pump, and a 90% efficient electric motor it requires around 1,200 horsepower. That could be spread across 12 x 100 hp pumps for a slight increase in efficiency, and probably more in line with the portable pumps available here.

Big efficient flood pumps installed in several countries, Japan is one of them, use a gas turbine jet engine of several thousand horsepower to power the pumps needed to control flood water, and those pumps are installed under perfect conditions, not in a muddy flooded hole in the ground.

I hope that I can be proven wrong.

[Nereus]

Prayut to visit flooded cave for moral support

https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/genera ... recent_box

Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha will visit Tham Luang in Chian Rai province to give moral support to 13 persons trapped in the cave, their families and rescuers.

Government spokesman Sansern Kaewkamnerd said on Thursday the prime minister wanted to give his support but did not want his trip to disrupt the search of 12 missing teen members of the Muu Paa Academy Mae Sai football team and his trainer.
The visit could be on Friday morning or during the weekend, Lt Gen Sansern added.
An unconfirmed report said he planned to leave at 7am on Friday.

Rain and high water levels in the cave obstructed divers to move forward to the so-called Pattaya beach, a dry ground chamber where the missing persons might have been waiting for help.

Divers suspended the mission in Mae Sai district, Chiang Rai as the cave overflowed, forcing authorities to stop pumping water and cut electricity inside. The divers needed space of 10-20cm from the ceiling to continue their work.

The rain stopped on Thursday afternoon and Interior Minister Anupong Paojinda said at the rescue site that rescuers were raising wires above water in Tham Luang to resume pumping water out and allow divers to continue the search.

..............................................................................................................................
If this is what they are using it will not help much:
Soldiers and rescue workers carry water pipes to Tham Luang cave during a search for members of a youth football team and their coach in Mae Sai district, Chiang Rai, on Thursday. (Reuters photo)

pvc pipes.jpg (54.1 KiB) Viewed 444 times

[Khundon1975]

Prayut to visit flooded cave for moral support

https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/genera ... recent_box

Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha will visit Tham Luang in Chian Rai province to give moral support to 13 persons trapped in the cave, their families and rescuers.

Government spokesman Sansern Kaewkamnerd said on Thursday the prime minister wanted to give his support but did not want his trip to disrupt the search of 12 missing teen members of the Muu Paa Academy Mae Sai football team and his trainer.
The visit could be on Friday morning or during the weekend, Lt Gen Sansern added.
An unconfirmed report said he planned to leave at 7am on Friday.

Rain and high water levels in the cave obstructed divers to move forward to the so-called Pattaya beach, a dry ground chamber where the missing persons might have been waiting for help.

Divers suspended the mission in Mae Sai district, Chiang Rai as the cave overflowed, forcing authorities to stop pumping water and cut electricity inside. The divers needed space of 10-20cm from the ceiling to continue their work.

The rain stopped on Thursday afternoon and Interior Minister Anupong Paojinda said at the rescue site that rescuers were raising wires above water in Tham Luang to resume pumping water out and allow divers to continue the search.

..............................................................................................................................
If this is what they are using it will not help much:
Soldiers and rescue workers carry water pipes to Tham Luang cave during a search for members of a youth football team and their coach in Mae Sai district, Chiang Rai, on Thursday. (Reuters photo)
pvc pipes.jpg

Looking at those what seem to be 150mm pipes Nereus, I
have to agree with you.
Back when I was working, we had a site where we had to
drain a lake of around 150 acres with water of around 40ft deep, for minerals extraction.

We had 8 Volvo marine 12 cylinder engines, each linked to
high pressure water extraction pumps, each with inlets of over 800mm. Also, 10 x 4 cylinder engines linked to 150 mm extraction pumps, all fed by 2x 30,000ltr fuel tanks.
Those pumps needed to run day and night for well over 6 weeks to drain the lake and needed to pump the water almost 1.5 kilometres away on the flat.
This lake wasn’t fed by a river, just ground water leeching horizontally from another lake a mile away.

I’m not sure if the water is coming from an underground river, but if it is, then every time it rains further up the water table, it’s going to enter the caves.

I understand that they need to reduce the levels so that the rescue teams can get in, but it’s like trying to drain the ocean.
I sincerely hope they succeed in their endeavours and everyone gets rescued. Let’s hope the kids are in a big enough cave, that they can get above the water levels and have enough oxygen to survive.

[404cameljockey]

I'm finished reading this thread as people showing off their technical knowledge in order to 'provide perspective' on rescue efforts is not cheering information.

I'll check Bangkok post in future and pray for good news. :/

[Nereus]

I sincerely hope they succeed in their endeavours and everyone gets rescued. Let’s hope the kids are in a big enough cave, that they can get above the water levels and have enough oxygen to survive.

It has been mentioned that there are a couple "chimney" like fissures that may lead down into the cave. Although it may be difficult to get equipment anywhere near them, pumping air in may be a life saver to those trapped.

[RCer]

I'm finished reading this thread as people showing off their technical knowledge in order to 'provide perspective' on rescue efforts is not cheering information.

I'll check Bangkok post in future and pray for good news. :/

Agreed. You bring what you can carry by hand and do the best you can with it.

[Khundon1975]

Sometimes “perspective” can inform and enlighten people who don’t have the knowledge available to them.

Who’s showing off? All I see, is members giving their views on how the rescue attempt is going and giving information on how it’s possible to reduce water levels using various pumping systems, based on similar scenarios.

I’m sure that you will gleen all the information your brain can assimilate from the BKK Post.

[Nereus]

I'm finished reading this thread as people showing off their technical knowledge in order to 'provide perspective' on rescue efforts is not cheering information.

I'll check Bangkok post in future and pray for good news. :/

Agreed. You bring what you can carry by hand and do the best you can with it.

Not really worth commenting on, except to say that I sincerely hope that both of you stay well away from the cave.

[Khundon1975]

I'm finished reading this thread as people showing off their technical knowledge in order to 'provide perspective' on rescue efforts is not cheering information.

I'll check Bangkok post in future and pray for good news. :/

Agreed. You bring what you can carry by hand and do the best you can with it.

RCer, if you relied on your plan, then there would be no rescue.
You can’t “carry by hand” a 150mm diesel pump over rough terrain! You require access to heavy lift capability.

Time is of the essence in all rescue situations and relying on carrying in equipment designed for very small pumps, is not the most effective way to do it.
What’s wrong with airlifting in heavy pumps and large bore pipes under helicopters.

All pumps, large or small, need to be as close as possible to the water they are pumping, to make them efficient.
The “head of water” (the height and distance the pump has to suck water) needed is critical and the larger the pump, the more effective the pumping operation will be.
150mm diesel pumps may do the job, but you would need so many (100’s) just to keep up with the water flowing in, let alone, to reduce the standing water levels.

Let’s hope the heavens don’t open again and increase the water levels and wish the potholers good luck.