Was referring to the farang mafia, namely a number of property developers that are backhanding the right people and are allowed to walk on klongs.nevets wrote:Most of the big Thai mafia famielis have their business interests in other places
Pattaya
Who is the happier man, he who has braved the storm of life and lived or he who has stayed securely on shore and merely existed? - Hunter S Thompson
-
margaretcarnes
- Rock Star
- Posts: 4172
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:28 am
- Location: The Rhubarb Triangle
Pattaya
Was that an observation or a complaint about the lack of pole dancers Buksi?
But yes - like Caller I've often wondered what the future holds for HH. It certainly won't be a Royal retreat if history repeats itself. Then it could well become a 'free for all' like Pattaya.
To be fair though the Russian influx to Pattaya certainly seems to have dragged it down. It was never going to be like HH, and many people enjoy the occassional change of pace. Pattaya does have its good points, like the markets and shopping, and theres a lot more to do (if only you can get across the roads to do it.)
Unfortunately over the years it has attracted the type of farangs who have gone there purposely to top themselves or worse, and the BIBs apparent lack of control over the flower girls situation in particular has left kids wide open to abuse. Our local flower girl once fled into our bar there in a very distressed state, and believe me its not something you want to have to deal with.
Will Pattaya ever get a good reputation again? Probably not. It seems to be too far gone. Its become notorious and therefore now feeds on that notoriety.
Can HH stop the same happening there? Maybe. But only by real understanding and co-operaton between expats, locals and the police when the time comes.
But yes - like Caller I've often wondered what the future holds for HH. It certainly won't be a Royal retreat if history repeats itself. Then it could well become a 'free for all' like Pattaya.
To be fair though the Russian influx to Pattaya certainly seems to have dragged it down. It was never going to be like HH, and many people enjoy the occassional change of pace. Pattaya does have its good points, like the markets and shopping, and theres a lot more to do (if only you can get across the roads to do it.)
Unfortunately over the years it has attracted the type of farangs who have gone there purposely to top themselves or worse, and the BIBs apparent lack of control over the flower girls situation in particular has left kids wide open to abuse. Our local flower girl once fled into our bar there in a very distressed state, and believe me its not something you want to have to deal with.
Will Pattaya ever get a good reputation again? Probably not. It seems to be too far gone. Its become notorious and therefore now feeds on that notoriety.
Can HH stop the same happening there? Maybe. But only by real understanding and co-operaton between expats, locals and the police when the time comes.
A sprout is for life - not just for Christmas.
-
Wanderlust
- Legend
- Posts: 2862
- Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:27 pm
- Location: Hua Hin
caller & anyone else wanting to engage in the discussion,
Although it is a concern for everyone, this site does not allow discussion of anything to do with the Monarchy, as outlined in the Terms and Conditions;
8. Discussion on Thai monarchy is strictly forbidden. Political topics are permitted however they will be closely monitored.
For me HH has to undergo big changes before becoming Pattaya'rised.
There is a scientific formula, discovered by Brit Neville Stacey in 1872:
Wild bars & nightclubs = younger crowd = drugs+money = supply = mafia+Russians = crime+crime+crime = Pattaya
Until they lift the entertainment restrictions due to it being Royal province, I can't see it getting like that. There is some business 'issues' as Buksida pointed out, but that's not rife. Some are being pulled up on it now, some are protected.
It inevitably has to get worse here, but I doubt Pattaya style. Anyway we have to become 'Phuket' before we can become 'Pattaya', you can't run before you walk
.
There is a scientific formula, discovered by Brit Neville Stacey in 1872:
Wild bars & nightclubs = younger crowd = drugs+money = supply = mafia+Russians = crime+crime+crime = Pattaya
Until they lift the entertainment restrictions due to it being Royal province, I can't see it getting like that. There is some business 'issues' as Buksida pointed out, but that's not rife. Some are being pulled up on it now, some are protected.
It inevitably has to get worse here, but I doubt Pattaya style. Anyway we have to become 'Phuket' before we can become 'Pattaya', you can't run before you walk
.
Not so sure if the Russian maffia is really involved in the Pattaya drugs trade. My guess would be that the Thai maffia rather chooses to control this highly lucrative business themselves. Foreign involvement needed nor wanted except maybe for the imports but Russia is to my knowledge not really a drug exporting country.
What people call the Russian maffia are mainly tourists. But quite a lot of them are criminals who bring over suitcases full of money earned in shady businesses back home. These types are not only from Russia by the way. This in Pattaya very common type of tourist can be from any country in the world. Big difference is that most keep low profile and the Russians do not. The show off and brag in great numbers. Does not make them "the Russian maffia" though. Maybe many of them wish they were.
What people call the Russian maffia are mainly tourists. But quite a lot of them are criminals who bring over suitcases full of money earned in shady businesses back home. These types are not only from Russia by the way. This in Pattaya very common type of tourist can be from any country in the world. Big difference is that most keep low profile and the Russians do not. The show off and brag in great numbers. Does not make them "the Russian maffia" though. Maybe many of them wish they were.
We are all living in 'the good old days' of the future.
I thought there was a growing problem with them there Roel, but only what I've read, so might be wrong/dodgy/exaggerated reporting etc.
Think a lot comes from South American via Nigerians.
From Pattaya Mail News:
Life sentence - 21 year old Estonian Hardo Kerz was found guilty of premeditated murder by the Chonburi provincial court for slaying of Pattaya bar owner Konstantine Povoloski on March 31.
Police also stated that another Russian, Vladimir Bechetov, 35, who is on wanted lists in many countries, is suspected of masterminding the murder.
With this case coming to light, police now believe the Russian mafia is beginning to establish itself in Pattaya. Pattaya Police have received reports that Russian gangs have been demanding protection money from Russian nationals with businesses in Pattaya. Other Russian gang activities include prostitution, extortion, executions and drugs.
Think a lot comes from South American via Nigerians.
From Pattaya Mail News:
Life sentence - 21 year old Estonian Hardo Kerz was found guilty of premeditated murder by the Chonburi provincial court for slaying of Pattaya bar owner Konstantine Povoloski on March 31.
Police also stated that another Russian, Vladimir Bechetov, 35, who is on wanted lists in many countries, is suspected of masterminding the murder.
With this case coming to light, police now believe the Russian mafia is beginning to establish itself in Pattaya. Pattaya Police have received reports that Russian gangs have been demanding protection money from Russian nationals with businesses in Pattaya. Other Russian gang activities include prostitution, extortion, executions and drugs.
Yes, we "ordinary law abiding model citizens" will never know what is really going on at maffia level and I do not particularly regret that. Anyway, increase in numbers of the aforementioned dodgy loaded tourists will inevitably lead to more of them opening bars and getting involved in all kind of businesses. On the other hand Thai police and Thai press love to point fingers at foreign involvement in any crime and they will take every opportunity to emphasize it.
We are all living in 'the good old days' of the future.
-
sandman67
- Rock Star
- Posts: 4398
- Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:11 pm
- Location: I thought you had the map?
"Russian Mafiya" is a term used to take in a whole swathe of E European organised crime gangs from the FSU .....and yes they have significant business interests in Pattaya (and increasingly in Patpong).
Having worked in St Petersburg, Kaliningrad and Moscow a few times now I have learned the signs .... pretty easy in most cases. A good tip is to look at the hands of the bloke you suspect. See any small tattoos? Yes? Ex prisoner and probable gang member. Another is to listen for the word "ded".... was told it meant "grandfather"....their name for the head of the family.
I saw some in HH at the start of the high season last year drinking in a karaoke bar. A MIB mate told me they had "asked them to leave" the night after..... so it looks like the Thai police do know what to look for in E European "guests" (or had been tipped off by the local Thai gangs).
One more thought..... Thai mafia vs Russian mafiya ....... hmm that one would be interesting ....but I know I would put my money on the farangs, collect my winnings and move elsewhere
Having worked in St Petersburg, Kaliningrad and Moscow a few times now I have learned the signs .... pretty easy in most cases. A good tip is to look at the hands of the bloke you suspect. See any small tattoos? Yes? Ex prisoner and probable gang member. Another is to listen for the word "ded".... was told it meant "grandfather"....their name for the head of the family.
I saw some in HH at the start of the high season last year drinking in a karaoke bar. A MIB mate told me they had "asked them to leave" the night after..... so it looks like the Thai police do know what to look for in E European "guests" (or had been tipped off by the local Thai gangs).
One more thought..... Thai mafia vs Russian mafiya ....... hmm that one would be interesting ....but I know I would put my money on the farangs, collect my winnings and move elsewhere
"Science flew men to the moon. Religion flew men into buildings."
"To sin by silence makes cowards of men."
"To sin by silence makes cowards of men."
It is a well known fact,that many fugitives, pedo's and genral on the run, in there own country scum bags, come to Pattaya,to lay low form the law.Every so offen the boyz in brown do a sweep through the city and allways arrest some very dodgy caricters.Its also a well known fact that Israelies are very closely connected to russian mafia and are involved with drug trafficking at the highest levels, so be aware dont get befriended by any charming Israelie when traveling through Asia the next time you go through an airport there could be something put into your bags that could reck your life for the next 50 years. 
Last edited by kendo on Sun May 25, 2008 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
margaretcarnes
- Rock Star
- Posts: 4172
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:28 am
- Location: The Rhubarb Triangle
Pattaya
Good point Roel. I think the corruption in Pattaya is down to those in charge mainly. That doesn't make the Russian influx squeaky clean though. Often they move in on the prostitution trade in many countries.
Personally I'm probably biased about Pattaya having lived there for a while and seeing some of the good side. These days its maybe only good for a few days visit. But I do think that the high level of killings there are not just a random thing, and not directed at your innocent tourist or expat.
Unfortunately a minority of expat bar owners have made a point of making trouble. One in particular is based on Soi Yamato and has a football theme.
Places like that continue to encourage the sort of tourism which Thailand doesn't need.
Personally I'm probably biased about Pattaya having lived there for a while and seeing some of the good side. These days its maybe only good for a few days visit. But I do think that the high level of killings there are not just a random thing, and not directed at your innocent tourist or expat.
Unfortunately a minority of expat bar owners have made a point of making trouble. One in particular is based on Soi Yamato and has a football theme.
Places like that continue to encourage the sort of tourism which Thailand doesn't need.
A sprout is for life - not just for Christmas.
I have been thinking about the so called corruption in Pattaya for a couple of days now. IMHO the situation has been self created by the Thais, and can be likened to Dawn's poisoning dogs argument. Remove the offender, and another will move into the territory within days.
My knowledge of Thailand goes back to when things such as paedophilia was accepted (not that I participated). Every bar had at least one 12/13 year old for hire. Their virginity was a major source of income to their families. Bar owners felt the obligation to provide special protection to these young girls. Regardless of your views on paedophilia, the system worked - it was a win-win situation for Thai families, the girls, the bar owners and the customers alike. It was out in the open, and apart from the fact that these young girls were being forced in to womanhood while they were still children everybody was happy. I knew a few of these young girls, and they were far from unhappy doing what they did.
Then some do-gooder decided that it was politically incorrect, and harmful to Thailand's tourist trade to have such acts taking place publicly - the trade was driven underground.
If the human race requires something that is not readily available, they will find a way to get it (this also includes the drugs trade). If it's illegal, such services then attract a premium price. Premium prices attract the criminal element. In the beginning the bib could control the illegal acts, making some nice contributions to the tea fund at the same time. Eventually, those that are more skilled at providing such services (enter the mafia - Thai, Russian or wherever - simply organised crime), will take over the management. If one body shows weakness eg Thai, then a stronger body eg Russian will move in, and take over. The stronger the criminal body, the weaker the bib becomes.
We have now moved from an open market where these children were protected against everything except the loss of their childhood; to a situation where they are often reported as being locked in dark rooms for long periods, and their only contact with the outside world is when some dirty scumbag buys their services.
I know that I've used a controversial subject to illustrate my point, but it is a fact that 20+ years ago when things were in the open, there was no market for the organised crime to move in to. Since it all became illegal (or at least the illegality became enforced) the packs of stray dogs moved in. As each pack of dogs is poisoned, another (often stronger) pack moves in.
Thailand really needs to look in its own back yard for reasons why this has happened.
My knowledge of Thailand goes back to when things such as paedophilia was accepted (not that I participated). Every bar had at least one 12/13 year old for hire. Their virginity was a major source of income to their families. Bar owners felt the obligation to provide special protection to these young girls. Regardless of your views on paedophilia, the system worked - it was a win-win situation for Thai families, the girls, the bar owners and the customers alike. It was out in the open, and apart from the fact that these young girls were being forced in to womanhood while they were still children everybody was happy. I knew a few of these young girls, and they were far from unhappy doing what they did.
Then some do-gooder decided that it was politically incorrect, and harmful to Thailand's tourist trade to have such acts taking place publicly - the trade was driven underground.
If the human race requires something that is not readily available, they will find a way to get it (this also includes the drugs trade). If it's illegal, such services then attract a premium price. Premium prices attract the criminal element. In the beginning the bib could control the illegal acts, making some nice contributions to the tea fund at the same time. Eventually, those that are more skilled at providing such services (enter the mafia - Thai, Russian or wherever - simply organised crime), will take over the management. If one body shows weakness eg Thai, then a stronger body eg Russian will move in, and take over. The stronger the criminal body, the weaker the bib becomes.
We have now moved from an open market where these children were protected against everything except the loss of their childhood; to a situation where they are often reported as being locked in dark rooms for long periods, and their only contact with the outside world is when some dirty scumbag buys their services.
I know that I've used a controversial subject to illustrate my point, but it is a fact that 20+ years ago when things were in the open, there was no market for the organised crime to move in to. Since it all became illegal (or at least the illegality became enforced) the packs of stray dogs moved in. As each pack of dogs is poisoned, another (often stronger) pack moves in.
Thailand really needs to look in its own back yard for reasons why this has happened.
Championship Stoke City 3 - 0 Plymouth Argyle 
Points 48; Position 20
Points 48; Position 20