Where does corruption start?

[Spitfire]

OK everyone, would just like to propose something that can be 'pushed around the table', no concrete opinions here from me, just propose something and share observations, let's see where it goes, if anywhere.
I can't help noticing little examples of this everywhere in general and work life here.

As I'm a teacher, and I have been so at different places, involved with the whole spectrum of age groups at some point, I can't help noticing the corruption that even exist in Kindergarden. The example is, one of many, I was drifting to a class a while back, when I worked at a certain school in Isaan(which will remain nameless) and came across a parent speaking to a Thai teacher about, quote, "please take care of little billy just that little bit better, here's 2000 baht", saw the parent hand over the money, my Thai is not that bad.

Many places have the no-fail policy, so long as you pay the cash.

On a general scale, one example of many, bought some land somewhere but the land was attached to another piece that was not part of the deal, so had to get the land registary office to come and split it up. Sounds simple, but as we all know, that's not the case, had to bribe them to come to do it within two weeks(5000 baht) or it would take 6 months to come and do it, so just paid them.

I suppose there are many examples of this everywhere, in many shapes and forms. Is it really just a cynical case of 'you can avoid the normal rules, so long as you pay the required price'.

But the real question is 'Where does it all start?'.

From my experience it all starts at school, maybe even Kindergarden, kids, parent and Thai teachers all together in collusion. Not sure, would be interested to know what the consensus is.

If the above is true, then it has certainly permiated its way into every section of life, without shame, but there must be a source somewhere. Wondering where it might be.

I'm sure many will have valid opinions and observations on this one.

Edited for spelling

[PeteC]

This really isn't meant to be a smart ass reply, although a bit comical.

I only shave every other day. My 2 year old daughter refused to give me a kiss on non-shaving days until I eventually started to bribe her with the promise of a cookie if she did. It worked.

So, perhaps it starts in the home like this, or even in nursery school with a cookie exchanged for a turn on the swing. Pete

[Super Joe]

We, the general public, take advantage of it when it suits us and do our little bit to help it flourish

You old fox spitfire, this one's gonna be lively .................


SJ

[Vital Spark]

I guess we're lucky in that we have never been involved in land deals, or house purchase, or running a business. We've, therefore, never had to bribe anyone to get (what little) we have.

It was, however, interesting what you wrote about the 'kindergarden bribe'. The end of term here is both stressful for us and obviously the students. I occasionally have students who haven't come to class, and haven't given me homework suddenly appear in my office. Quote: 'My friend (because she can't speak English) is worried about her grade'. So she should be, I think. Pause. Silence... At this point, I guess, I should be quoting a figure of baht to make sure that her friend doesn't fail. I then give the, 'If she gives me some homework tommorow, and you go through all the lessons that she's missed, then she might have a slim chance of passing' bit. Yes, we do fail students here. More silence.... Obviously not the right answer.

I can't say if it works with the Thai teachers, but it certainly doesn't with me.

Blimey! I could have that new Honda Civic I've been dreaming of, but I'm too honest to go down that murky, corrupt path.

VS

[Wanderlust]

VS,
That is very commendable, but I want to ask if you have ever been on the other side of the corruption coin? Have you ever been stopped by the police here while driving and been told that you have done something wrong (e.g. not wearing crash helmet, speeding)? This is even if you haven't done anything wrong. Do you or have you taken the moral high ground and insisted that you have done nothing wrong and that you will go to the police station for several hours, etc, or do you/have you paid the 200 baht 'fine' so you can go on your way? I'm not judging you, just asking. It is very hard to avoid corruption here as it is almost ingrained into life in Thailand.

[kendo]

Where my house is if i take the boarder road from Chong Chom to Aranya Prathet it knocks off nearly 2 hours down to HH the only down side is the check point charlies, everytime we get stopped and fined 2 or 3 times for no reason. When we get stopped they allways want to see i.d cards but never ask me for my passport it really is a joke they just make it up as they go along.Last December my mini van driver drove the wrong side of a barrier in swampy when we where dropping some friends off, this cop tried to fine the driver 2000 baht i asked my wife what was going on and the cop said " don't worry the farang will pay for you" i was strait out of the van making very strong protest the cop seemed uncomfortable with this and kept looking around like he was doing something wrong, a little bit more talking with the wife and he settled for 500 baht hand shake i was furious that day i forked out 1200 baht in fines enough was enough.
Another time coming down to HH from Bangkok the green and yellow cabs are allways fair game are driver got stopped and fined and told us we had to pay the fine, i said when we get to the Regent Cha am we will sort it out there, on are arrival i put there fare in his hand and made a quick manoeuvre into the hotel reception. for me it's one of the very few things i dont like about Thailand, but it can also work in your favor as i have written on another thread.

[Condoking]

The Arab parents of a school in the UAE were complaining that the cost of their kids homework was getting too expensive. Problem was that the school increased the amount of homework and the parents had to pay more to the Indians who were doing it for them!!

[Chas]

Precisely why, in my years of teaching English composition here, I never accepted an essay that was not written by the student in the classroom as I watched. One of the real surprises when I first started teaching in Thailand was the rampant intellectual dishonesty and the widespread cheating during exams as well as the fact that this seemed to be the accepted norm. (On the other end of the spectrum, over the years I watched as three or four Thai teachers and administrators were exposed for having fake degrees.)

I was also shocked by the open gift-giving, especially from poor students when it came time for grades. But the OP is correct. This probably goes back to primary school and perhaps even to the Thai attitude toward raising children. My observation is that they are spoiled rotten and that discipline of any sort is sparse. The "tough love" concept is unknown. When faced with a problem like poor performance in school, continued absence, cheating in an exam, drugs. . . . whatever a kid might get into, the reaction of the offender's parents never seems to be, "How can I educate my child and change the bad behavior?" but rather "How can I buy my way through and/or blame someone else for being so mean to my perfectly blameless child."

[Super Joe]

Have we ever:
1) Bought a Nike shirt down the market instead of buying an original.
2) Bought a DVD/Music CD down the market
3) Eaten in a restaurant where those sweet (but underage) kids clean up the plates


Under the following circumstances would you partake in bit of corruption?:
1) Serious driving offence - Pay 100k Baht or go to jail for 5 years.
2) Your child can't get in that school that may make or break his future -Pay 20k for him to get in or let him go to inferior school.
3) Your child caught smoking 'something' at aged 15 - pay 20k Baht or let him serve 6 months and have a criminal record.

If you have done any of the following you have more than likely been involved in it, albeit unknowingly:
1) Bought, leased or rented property
2) Set-up a Limited Company
3) Obtained a Work Permit

Give me a Rolex from PatPong anyday, seen the prices of the real ones?? I'll admit I'm all for it.

SJ

[Arcadian]

Living in a similar culture in North Africa I would say that it all starts at the top, and lower mortals are onlydoing their best to survive.

[Guess]

Good thread but it is titled corruption and the only topic so far is bribery.

Firstly there are many forms of corruption. I don't think bribery is one that needs too much discussion. It has been said already, it begins at home. It is human nature. Anybody who tells you that they have never accepted a bribe is a liar.

The problem comes when people will take bribes are detrimental to others. If the bribe is taken illegally it is corruption. The story of the Indians doing kids homework really does little to affect others at the time but does serious damager to the education of the child who was supposed to be the beneficiary. The reason the Indians could do it is that they did their own homework.

No, where does corruption start? That is a very difficult question to answer.

Anybody who finds themselves in a position of power is open to corruption. Power could be as simple as a school monitor in the first year of high school right up to the president of the United States or the head of the world's largest media company.

Any of you who know the stories of Elliot Ness and Frank Serpico must know the scale of corruption among people in power.

One factor is that these individuals in these positions are under great pressure to be corrupt. This could be fuelled by money, resentment, idealism or fear.

Thailand by no means has a monopoly over corruption. It certainly is more visible here than many countries. I have already mentioned two characters from the US who became famous for not being corrupt. The UK have had corruption at National Security level which put every British citizen at risk. In most Central and South American countries, corruption is a way of life as it is in other Asian countries in this region.

In Europe, Spain Italy and Franc have all recently had criminal gangs running the affairs of politicians either for political gain of direct financial gain.

Where does it start. Sometime between weaning and High School I guess.

BTW. Bribery is common practice today in large so called respectable corporates. So long as IR are informed of financial gain its fair game to the of the briber. Of course the word bribery is shunned but that is what it is. A turd by any other name still stinks.

[sargeant]

Where does it start

in my experience it start at Mrs Sarges handbag

[Spitfire]

Very good Sarge and gentlemen, but,

Where are you Buksi when we need you, surely you not going to "Let the Wookie win", when it should be "If so powerful you are, why leave".

[buksida]

Good thread but it is titled corruption and the only topic so far is bribery.

I'd agree with that, not sure what it has to do with Nike shirts and work permits either - you can get counterfeit goods pretty much anywhere and the days of getting dodgy visas and work permits are long gone.

Corruption benefits only those affluent enough to take advantage of it, which is a small minority of this Kingdom's population - it starts at birth I would imagine!

[Super Joe]

For me it starts when you are in a position to take advantage of it and your morals are sufficiently compramised by the offer to hand. If they never are more power to you.

Bribery is one of the, if not the, biggest ingredient in corruption.
It may be as small as a Nike shirt or as big as a international arms 'deal' with China.
It's all part and parcel.

We the public help to fund and facilitate corruption

SJ